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Is socialism killing the Labour Party?

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Male
A_man_called_CHIOG  Male  South East London 13-Oct-2019 09:45 Message #4757832
I find this interesting.
Female
Andromeda  Female  Berkshire 13-Oct-2019 09:52 Message #4757837
I think it is.
Male
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire 13-Oct-2019 11:04 Message #4757849
Yes. Corbyn has made Labour a haven for extremists with hateful ideology. Not least the bigoted Momentum group who were distributing pamphlets mocking disabled British soldiers and questioning the need to commemorate Jewish victims of the holocaust.

From the Telegraph.
“Socialism kills. It is not necessary to reach back into history to prove that assertion, though the millions killed by Stalin’s Soviet purges and economic failures should never be forgotten when any politician extols the virtues of socialism. Contemporary evidence abounds in Venezuela. Mr Corbyn has lavishly praised the socialist rulers who have murderously ruined its once-healthy economy, a disaster whose cost is borne by the weak and vulnerable the Left claims to champion.”

Socialists have infiltrated numerous good causes with peaceful protesters. Become aggressive and driven away the peaceful protesters leaving the hard-line left who have then been shunned by the public. The same is likely to happen to the protesters now in London.

Socialism simply doesn’t work. It hurts the poor.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 13-Oct-2019 11:15 Message #4757851
I don't think it is, but I think they need to present it differently and rethink some of it, the world has changed over the last hundred or so years and any political group needs to be updating itself to changing circumstances. I do believe we can have a fairer and more equal society without punishing people for inheriting a normal home and savings from parents, its the crazy house prices that are wrong, half a million for a terrace or semi in many parts of the country. With those prices inheritance is the only way many will ever be able to afford their own home, home ownership is a reality for the many not just the few, totally unlike when the Labour movement first started. We do need more social housing, but we also should not be trying to replicate the divisions of the past via who owns and who rents. I do believe that private schools should have their charitable status removed, to me its taking the pee that somewhere like Eton is a charity, thats had to be dragged into making a contribution to state school pupils. It is right to want that level of education or all, the small class sizes the resourses etc, but then I'd like to see more different types of school as not all children learn the same way or in the same environment and I'd certainly allow local authorities to start building and running schools again and stop this academy/free school nonsense, to many of them are failing.

I'd like to see people have elder care leave, for when they have to take elderly parents to hospital, maybe a tax break, or some sort of financial help to create an extension or move house to accomodate an elderly relative instead of them having to go into care homes. Obviously this will not always be possible or advisable, either because of problems within the family or because the elder's health problems are to great for at home care.

I'd like to see a move towards universal benefit so as everyone gets to share the benefits of increased mechanisation and AI that are taking over our jobs. We are a nation of enormously creative people and yet the pressures of life often stop that creativity rather than encourage it. We also need a massive program for adult education, both to retrain people for the jobs available and to enrich lives and encourage that creativity.
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 11:22 Message #4757853
'Socialism simply doesn’t work. It hurts the poor.'

I don't know whether that's true or not. I prefer the idea (admittedly, my idea) of socialism above fascism and economism (is there such a word?) but I agree, when socialism fails it fails big time - the example you gave of Stalin is a good one, but am I correct Hitler also called his government a socialist government?

Perhaps a good start to this sort of discussion might be what is our understanding of socialism? what is it? and is this discussion more about the Labour party than about socialism?
Male
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 13-Oct-2019 11:54 Message #4757872
"Socialists have infiltrated numerous good causes with peaceful protesters. Become aggressive and driven away the peaceful protesters leaving the hard-line left who have then been shunned by the public."
this MO sounds like what has happened on mse !

it wont be too long before the trolls come along and turn this debate into their own agenda, followed by their nastiness.
Male
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 13-Oct-2019 12:06 Message #4757877
I hope not fosy. It’s not necessary to be confrontational to present different opinions. Interesting question on terry’s post which asks what is socialism.
Male
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 13-Oct-2019 12:15 Message #4757879
quite right, tsw.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 13-Oct-2019 16:47 Message #4757923
Personally, I think Corbyn and his cabal are stuck in the past, maybe if socialism was modernised it would sound, at least to me, as credible and sensible. Perhaps someone with an interest in socialism could explain how that might happen.
To me it just comes across as the politics of envy and hard left types carry massive chips around on their shoulders, expecting stuff for nothing and bemoaning those that have achieved.
The next election will be a real acid test as to whether or not modern Britain is ready to embrace hard left policies, Labour's only hope is getting youngsters, who have never experienced a hard left government, to turn out and vote.
If Labour fail to win I wouldn't be surprised if they split....
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 13-Oct-2019 17:42 Message #4757934
Socialism simply doesn’t work. It hurts the poor.

A sad truth that many would do well to heed. The harder the socialism the more the poor suffer and in many countries this has meant the loss of jobs, no food and eventually starvation.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 18:24 Message #4757941
Amancalled_CHIOG Sex icon 13-Oct-2019 09:45
I find this interesting.
------------------
1) More of your populist, Far-Right-Wing mischief-making written in ignorance of any factual basis whatsoever.

2) You claim "I find this interesting." - so interesting that once having set off the hare, like Mr Cameron you run off and hide having contributed NOTHING to the debate - as usual.

3) Under those conditions, perhaps you should change your screen name to A Coward called Frit

Have you been approached by The Sun or the Daily Star to scribble on walls for them?

As Beach might chuckle - "Only winding you up just a half turn." :-))

IT'S-a ALL-a GOOD-a CLEAN-a FUN-a - as Eddie Waring would have chortled

Mind thee- 'e war a Nothern lad, 'appen.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 18:36 Message #4757942
Hierophant Sex icon 13-Oct-2019 16:47
Labour's only hope is getting youngsters, who have never experienced a hard left government, to turn out and vote.

---------------------------
You really are side-splittingly funny, Hierophant - but not the Ha Ha type.

Given that the last time there was anything approaching a Democratic Socialist Gov't in UK was in the post-2nd-European Civil War period, those youngsters are going to be rather long in the tooth.
OR
Are you a follower of the Law busting Terresa Gorman (MP) who claimed that Harold "Supermac" Macmillan was a closet Communist?

Yes. That Suits You, Sir!
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 18:45 Message #4757943
HotOrWot Sex icon 13-Oct-2019 17:42
Socialism simply doesn’t work. It hurts the poor.

A sad truth that many would do well to heed. The harder the socialism the more the poor suffer and in many countries this has meant the loss of jobs, no food and eventually starvation.
-----------------------
Ah - so that's how the US/A comes to be in the state that it's in - it's actually SOCIALIST.

You really are a Star - in fact so much of a one that you're about to implode with the weight of your own ignorance and become a Black Hole.

(Implode = the opposite of Explode.)
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 13-Oct-2019 18:47 Message #4757944
Unlike you G2BW, I'm not obsessively shackled to any one MP or party.
Yes Suits you indeed, Sir

Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 18:55 Message #4757945
fosy Sex icon 13-Oct-2019 11:54

it wont be too long before the trolls come along and turn this debate into their own agenda, followed by their nastiness. (sic)

----------------------------
Oh, "fosy" you are SUCH a tease and a baiter, bless you.
YOU are the Troll, Foss - so you're already here - a 5th columnist.

All this 'pretend' opposition to so-called Trolls is a front for you to drive everyone away - including the Cabal that STILL won't (won't - not wont) let you join. Then you can be King of the deserted castle.

All Hail- king fossy the first - and last, D.G.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 13-Oct-2019 19:05 Message #4757946
Hierophant Male East Anglia13-Oct-2019 18:47 new Message #4757944
Unlike you G2BW, I'm not obsessively shackled to any one MP or party.
----------------------
That is REALLY good news 'phanty-hoes that you're a free-ranging BDSM type.
I'm FAR to loyal for you, so I'll have to turn your (Covert) invitation down.
Never mind - there are lots of others out there hiding in the fens, drains and sluices.

They'll Sluice You, 'phanty-hoes.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 13-Oct-2019 20:07 Message #4757952
How disappointing. A good thread and interesting subject. Posters offering some good thoughts on the subject ... then along comes the miserable detestable troll spreading his venom and ruining another conversation.

We almost got through Sunday without him. No wonder so many have him blocked. It’s the only way.

PS. Do have a look JustLyn and try to justify the behaviour of the trolling moron Good2BWith before he hoodwinks you again.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 13-Oct-2019 20:31 Message #4757960
Hierophant Male East Anglia 13-Oct-2019 16:47 new Message #4757923
Personally, I think Corbyn and his cabal are stuck in the past, maybe if socialism was modernised it would sound, at least to me, as credible and sensible. Perhaps someone with an interest in socialism could explain how that might happen.
To me it just comes across as the politics of envy and hard left types carry massive chips around on their shoulders, expecting stuff for nothing and bemoaning those that have achieved.
The next election will be a real acid test as to whether or not modern Britain is ready to embrace hard left policies, Labour's only hope is getting youngsters, who have never experienced a hard left government, to turn out and vote.
If Labour fail to win I wouldn't be surprised if they split....


A sad truth.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 13-Oct-2019 20:46 Message #4757962
As much as I disagree with G2BW methods of verbally hitting out at some posters, although he has a point, Chiog does rarely contribute to his own posts, but is also never adversarial and does not deserve a vociferous response. Responding in such a way does not serve G2BW in presenting his views constructively.

However, to state I am somehow "hoodwinked" and to call someone a trolling moron kind of demotes any argument you have.
Male
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire 13-Oct-2019 20:50 Message #4757963
I don’t see why Chiog should contribute to all his own posts. I’m just grateful that he posts a good selection of posts and plenty of members do respond to them. G2BW was completely out of order on this occasion and has shown himself incapable of being civil.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 13-Oct-2019 21:07 Message #4757966
In my opinion, Labour is socialist but had lost it's way.

Wiki "Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition "

Any politics and most things are a process of trying something, take what works, trying again and abandoning what doesn't work so the Labour party today is going through that process.

It's the same with people if lucky. We might start with an ambition, attempt to follow it, then diversify along another path as we learn and go through a circle of change.

Right now we have a Conservative party that has ejected it's middle cabinet members, others have gone to the LibDems, and a Left leaning Labour has taken over where Labour last lost out for not being Left enough. However, that does not mean "extreme". Corbyn and McDonnel have mellowed from their youth, become more philosophical, grown up, and just want to put the fairer bits of being "Left" into action such as where the NHS started.

We have tried "capitalising" (as opposed to nationalising) the public transport, water, energy etc and there has been an equal amount of problems reversing nationalisation where profiteering has preplaced strikes and unionism. The middle ground in my view is what Corbyn is proposing where unlike employees striking because of greedy bosses, they part own the companies and have a vested interest in looking after the company they work for.

My partner has retired from a paper company that run very successfully when employees were board members. My nephew get shares when the company who employees him does well, as did John Lewis but unfortunately their future is affected by the impact on internet purchasing instead of going into stores.

I think if people take the time to understand socialism rather than regurgitate the examples of the past, some started with good intentions and only failed because of allowing abuse into the system which is kind of, what we have right now anyway.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 13-Oct-2019 21:21 Message #4757968
I don’t think the Labour Party itself is socialist just the extreme left of it which is why it is an unhappy party at the moment. I agree people should understand socialism and I think they would shy away in droves. If they looked at the harm socialism has done to countries and individuals. It has never worked anywhere in the world and has always hurt the poor.
Socialism just like Communism works perfectly well for the elite few at the top.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 13-Oct-2019 21:26 Message #4757970
Socialists never do themselves any favours though, they argue with each other more than anybody else.
I think it's one of the reasons why socialist governments are so rare and never last, they are so entrenched and blinkered they end up ripping themselves apart.
The latest word on the street is even McDonnell is trying to undermine Corbyn and Labour MP's are openly talking about who will replace the great leader if (in other words when) they fail to win the election.
They are trying to sound upbeat about their chances and show support for Corbyn, but it just sounds like empty words...
Male
Michaelt  Male  Devon 13-Oct-2019 21:26 Message #4757971
JustLyn , You write a totally brilliant comment. Labour lost its way by losing its core values under Tony Blair's New Labour Government 1997-2010, when Mr Blair decided to continue the late Margaret Thatcher's right wing low income tax, short termism, competitive, free market agenda.....
Male
SQL  Male  Devon 13-Oct-2019 21:34 Message #4757972
JustLyn - 13-Oct-2019 20:46

As much as I disagree with G2BW methods of verbally hitting out at some posters, although he has a point, Chiog does rarely contribute to his own posts, but is also never adversarial and does not deserve a vociferous response. Responding in such a way does not serve G2BW in presenting his views constructively.

Ah - I see he is at it again (blocking does result in a far more peaceful life). A-man-called-CHIOG doe soften post interesting topics and allows the rest to offer their views. From Lyn's reply I presume to told goat is objecting to the OP not coming back to debate - well Old Man just look at your record - you refuse to debate, only rant. And when you try to put up a completely bogus debate you run a mile as soon as a response is given.

Oh yes, of course - the insults. That's your idea of a debate I presume, if you cannot defend your ideas or opinions then just insult anyone who can present a well thought out proposition. Then claim a victory or complaint bitterly when people just ignore you.

SQL

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