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What about the animals?

Extinction or.....?

HonestBob  Male  the Central region 11-Aug-2019 08:20 Message #4748306
Hi folks.....

A very long and boring drive last night up to Aberdeen, poor visibility and surface water made it a very long night. I was tuned into LBC and the topic was veganism.

A vegan called in and was putting his point across and it went a little something like....

"The amount of land required to keep animals for beef and dairy is so vast, if we stopped using them we could free us so much space..... the animals deserve a better life than being in a...... "

Now maybe I missed something, but if we all stopped drinking milk, and eating dairy products..... what would happen to the dairy cows?

If we stopped eating beef, chicken, pork, lamb and so on.... what would happen to these animals?

Would they go into extinction, or do they have other uses? Not exactly economical family pets, can't really be put to work, as horse and dogs have the market well looked after.

Would they be wild like foxes and deer?
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 11-Aug-2019 08:55 Message #4748308
thankfully, vegans make up about one percent of the population and cannot be all there. they don't get down to thinking things through at all.

so we get rid of all our natural food resources , and farmers only grow soya and rabbit food , this means that the land will return to the wild or be used to build houses maybe,

thankfully I will soon be dead, BEAM ME UP
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Aug-2019 12:10 Message #4748326
The sort of farming we do now is hugely expensive in terms of land use and the amount of grain grown to feed dairy cows and meat. I don't think we need to stop having meat or dairy, just eat less and better quality and use the whole animal. Our modern breeds of cows give high yields of milk and meat but have to be fed a lot more than grass, hay and silage, if we used older breeds of cattle that are able to be outside all year round and forage for their own food we'd all be better off, they also taste better. There are some areas of the country where little else can be grown, the mountains and salt marshes in this area being two of them. I also think we should wear more wool instead of manmade fibres that slough plastic waste into the water system and eventually into us. If we did move towards more plant based diet then the sorts of herds and flocks we see would decrease, but we will have to change the way we farm in the future anyway as its not sustainable. We need our hedgerows for wildlife and they along with smaller fields help stop soil loss, soil loss is a major problem, the land is much less fertile meaning that more artificial fertilizers have to be used but makes the ground less able to absorb water making flooding more likely and floods wash away soil creating a vicious circle.
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 11-Aug-2019 13:53 Message #4748331
According to the very vegans Bob spoke of, ,Hen , they don't or wont wear wool,leather or use honey, eat eggs or any dairy etc.

They do eat stuff that takes masses of processing though.
RAACH84  Female  Buckinghamshire 11-Aug-2019 16:27 Message #4748341
Calculating what is best for the planet will never be easy and those protesting are living in a dream world of their own if they believe they have the answers.
Scientists are now fairly much in agreement that cutting down on meat consumption and particularly the meats which are inefficient to produce would help significantly. Eating plant based products is preferable but not if we import what we are eating in enormous gas-guzzling ships travelling long distances.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 11-Aug-2019 23:08 Message #4748388
The aim is to have Compassion in Farming, reduce meat, eat more expensively reared, but compassionately treated animals that don't produce methane. Pay the same, but eat half the quantity, and choose free range chicken and maybe welsh lamb so we don't import from New Zealand.

Reduce dairy. I have already done this and given my business to the milkman. I pay more for organic but my bills are less because we (3 of us) use oat milk on cereal and only use dairy for tea and coffee with a few exceptions. Pay more for milk, have cows free in the meadows and not over producing and treating cows like we should never have treated battery hens.

If we all stopped having supersize steaks, we would have fewer strokes and heart attacks, less obesity.
Game meat like venison is healthier, but just small amounts.

Most of these animals have been domesticated and did not exist prior to man existing so they would just exist a bit like horses do now, as pets, or small holdings for more natural and original production rather than mass production.

We have mother pigs held down in cages whilst they give birth, intelligent beings with feelings.
We have ducks having their beaks clipped off so they cannot peck each other in close captivity, whilst others are ram fed with tubes to make them overfeed.

I stayed in a B&B next door to an organic farm where I was kept awake the entire night whilst a cow was crying for it's calf that has been taken away the previous day.

Humans have a sense of entitlement to treat living creatures as inanimate objects but these creature feel emotional pain, physical pain, have memories, love their young ones, build relationships often for life.

We now even have the equivalent "battery" salmon, in such close proximity that they are rife with lice and disease and only around a third of the nourishment that fresh salmon once offered.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 11-Aug-2019 23:16 Message #4748392
Stopping the British from eating meat is as unlikely as taking guns away from Americans.
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 12-Aug-2019 06:28 Message #4748407
thankfully, vegans make up about one percent of the population and cannot be all there. they don't get down to thinking things through at all.

so we get rid of all our natural food resources , and farmers only grow soya and rabbit food , this means that the land will return to the wild or be used to build houses maybe,

thankfully I will soon be dead, BEAM ME UP

Maybe it’s the carnivores who do not think things through. Vegans are likely to have given everything a lot of thought and have the strength to back it up with action and often personal sacrifices. Even if we don’t agree with vegans we can hardly criticise someone for caring about animals and the environment.

If we were more reliant on foods we can grow there is an amazing selection of foods to choose from. If lands returned to the wild it would not be a bad thing as grasslands, like forests, clean our atmosphere.

I admire your confidence that when you are dead you will be beamed UP!
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 12-Aug-2019 07:45 Message #4748411
Just for the record,............ mother pigs are put into farrowing crates to give birth, in order for them Not to roll on their newborn piglets when birthing.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 12-Aug-2019 09:09 Message #4748414
Why can't we just have a mix? Fine, if some people want to live a vegan life then do it, but those of us who believe humans are designed to eat meat should do that too.
Does anybody know what long term effect there would be on the planet, environment and human health if we all turned vegan?
I certainly don't believe it's a win, win situation...
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 12-Aug-2019 09:21 Message #4748419
humans are designed to eat meat

I believe the human digestive system is not designed to eat meat. Humans eating the enormous quantities of meat came about when cooking was discovered.

Why can't we just have a mix?

That is the answer. We do eat far too much meat but a healthy mix of eating the right meats and other foods makes sense.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 12-Aug-2019 10:24 Message #4748422
HotOrWot, I agree with every word you have written on this thread.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 12-Aug-2019 10:47 Message #4748424

Yes, that is true, farrowing crates, not to roll on newborn piglets, but this is in part, because the mothers are hugely overweight with fat which in the wild would not be the case.

The UK has standards as I am sure you know, but this is not always adhered to.

It was not that long ago that in the UK, it became law to have CCTV in slaughter houses because those doing the slaughtering were found to be enjoying torturing the pigs, to give them the most painful and sadistic death they could think of.

Of course not all pork comes from the UK. One of the reasons I would have liked Brexit is if the UK could lead in animal rights and exceed those the EU impose. Sadly though, there are signs things will go the other way, hence the chlorinated chicken issue.

How pigs are treated in the USA is abominable. An extract from PETA who try to protect animals wrote:

"When they’re old enough to give birth, female pigs, or sows, are artificially inseminated and imprisoned for their entire pregnancies in “gestation crates,” cages that are just 2 feet wide and too small for them even to turn around or lie down comfortably. They often experience health problems, such as ulcers and pressure sores, from lack of movement—and worse. One worker describes how a mother pig with a broken pelvis was treated:
[My supervisor] kicked her and then grabbed her by both of her ears and attempted to drag her out of the gestation crate in the breeding barn. She screamed in pain and protest .… [He was] riding her like a surfboard with one leg on her back and one on her neck. He then grabbed her by her tail, lifted her body, and forced her to walk out of her crate. As she did this, it was a horrific sight. The back half of her body was unable to move …. [My supervisor] was then trying to kick her and push her to keep her still as he shot her. She turned to the sows in crates alongside her as if asking for help. They kissed and sniffed, and then she was shot."

The Independent reported even the UK rulings are inadequate.
"Most of the 1.5 billion pigs slaughtered for meat worldwide each year do not get to live on spacious farmland...fuelled by the meat consumer's ever-growing demand for cheap pork, Lizzie Rivera reveals the shocking treatment of intensively reared pigs...

Sienna Miller and Mick Jagger were just two of the celebrities to turn their noses up at factory pig farming at a fundraising dinner hosted by Farms Not Factories last week. It saw the launch of a series of videos from celebrated chefs including Hugh-Fearnley Whittingstall, Mark Hix, and Tom Hunt encouraging consumers to buy higher welfare pork.

“I want to eat pork from pigs that have been reared outdoors, free to enjoy the rooting, snuffling and social interaction that are so essential to them

“The alternative – intensively reared, antibiotic-laden meat from stressed animals confined in high numbers in cramped indoor conditions – is simply not acceptable.”

Pigs are very sociable animals and will happily spend their days grazing or rooting the ground with their sensitive snouts, or wallowing in the mud to cool down. However, most of the 1.5 billion pigs slaughtered for meat worldwide each year don’t get that chance. We farm a relatively modest 10.6 million pigs annually in the UK, but for the vast majority life looks nothing like the idyllic farms we have been brought up to imagine.

“In Britain, a nation of animal lovers, most of our pigs are in factory farms in conditions that in my view can only be described as utter depravation,” says Compassion in World Farming (CIWF) chief executive, Philip Lymbery.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 12-Aug-2019 11:38 Message #4748427
Vegans don't use any animal product, no honey, bees wax or leather or wool. I'm not a vegan, I don't eat animal produce for dietry reasons, but I don't have a particular problem with those that do, I just wish they wouldn't be so defensive about their dietry choices. I've yet to meet a meat eater who dosen't go defensive when they find out I'm veggie, I don't push being veggie on anyone and yet I have to put up with snearing comments and people trying to sneak meat into my food even when told it makes me ill, it gets really boring. The only meat eaters I have a problem with are the ones who can only eat meat when its neatly wrapped in a supermarket packet and is disguised from being part of a dead animal, I think you should have the courage and self honesty to own your choices.

If I buy pork I always make sure its British, I don't like sow crates and I'm not sure I get the thing about sows squashing their pigglet by rolling on them, if death by squashing is such a problem then how come the species hasn't died out?

I think humans are designed to be omnivorous, our vestigal apendix's show that once we ate far more tough green stuff, but we're not designed to be carnivorous like dogs and cats who can digest small amounts of grain such as what could be found in a prey animals stomach, dogs can, do and should have some fruit or vegetables in thier diets, many love an apple or a carrot.

HonestBob  Male  the Central region 12-Aug-2019 16:41 Message #4748450
"Just for the record,............ mother pigs are put into farrowing crates to give birth, in order for them Not to roll on their newborn piglets when birthing."

I was just going to say that.

I'm remembering a tv show I watched, and they showed the difference between a "unmodified" chicken, and one that had been pumped full of all the drugs, steroids, chemicals and what ever they do with them. The difference was the great size difference! The breasts on the drugged chicken were huge and the breasts off the other were tiny.

I reduced the meat I ate few months back, reduced it quite drastically. I felt good, lost some weight. I don't think for me it was sustainable, so I'm back to eating it again, not in huge quantity, but back to meat every day..... some weight has came back. When I say meat..... 95% chicken.
Aely  Female  Hampshire 12-Aug-2019 22:30 Message #4748487
Both my daughters decided to go veggie when they were young. The elder tried it for a while in her teens. I didn't discourage her but introduced her to the veggie protein options available at the time. She wasn't impressed! I didn't think she would be. She had wanted to go veggie because she couldn't bear the thought of eating those beautiful cute lambs and preferred to see them gamboling around the fields. I pointed out to her that a) we couldn't afford lamb so she wasn't responsible for their early demise and b) if nobody ate lamb, nobody would grow sheep, so no gamboling.
She did go veggie for a while when products improved but found her health suffered. She now eats meat in moderation, a couple of times a week, which is adequate for good health, although she is now gluten and lactose intolerant and losing weight rapidly as her diet is so restricted.

My younger daughter became severely underweight when at primary school. She was stick thin and I really worried about her. I had money problems and although I fed her as well as I could I relied on her getting a good lunchtime meal at school, which they did provide. However when I went to the open day, where the cooks had examples of the dishes they provided, one of them said "Ah, you are our little vegetarian's mum!" She had been living off salad instead of the nutritionally balanced meal I thought she had been getting.

I don't eat much red meat. A "portion" of beef is a treat and does me 2 meals plus perhaps a bit left for a sandwich. I eat fish when I can get it at a decent price (i.e. on the Quick Sale shelf). If I get a chicken it lasts me about 10 days, some fresh and some frozen and used later in stir fries, risottos etc. Lamb is a treat once or twice a year.
RAACH84  Female  Buckinghamshire 13-Aug-2019 08:08 Message #4748510
I think how we farm animals is more important than why we farm them or even how we slaughter them. No excuse for cruelty.

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