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Rules on Abortion


Aely  Female  Hampshire 17-May-2019 13:36 Message #4740313
It seems that 25 men in Alabama have decided that women in Alabama should have no recourse to an abortion unless their life is seriously endangered by the pregnancy. Women will be forced to carry a foetus to term even if it resulted from incest or rape (or, presumably, both).

The ruling will probably be challenged in the Supreme Court but that body has been "packed" by Trump who claims to be pro-life and whose election has encouraged the Alabama politicians to take this approach. Since Trump was elected 6 other states,Georgia, Ohio, Mississippi, Kentucky, Iowa and North Dakota, have voted to ban abortions once a heartbeat has been detected i.e at about 6 weeks of pregnancy.

So far, implementation of these new state laws has been suspended while legal arguments continue.

Abortion is not fun, it is not to be lightly considered, but in my opinion sometimes it is the best decision. A woman should not be forced to have a child whose birth could cause acute mental distress, that could be born with a severe debilitating condition that the parent(s) could not cope with (and might result in a short and miserable life for the child), that would put the health and upbringing of existing children in danger because of insufficient financial support or a resulting family breakup. (This is not a comprehensive list). I do think that it must be a seriously considered option, not a method of casual birth control, in so far as a woman (girl) can give serious consideration at a time of perhaps panic and emotional turmoil. This decision should be made as early in the pregnancy as possible (which will vary from case to case).

Should men be allowed to take such a decision when it only directly affects females? What do you think of this American trend to pass such laws? What do you think are the chances that the gentlemen of the Alabama Senate would not seek an abortion for their wives if they were the result of rape? Over to you, Ladies and Gentlemen.
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester 17-May-2019 14:15 Message #4740317
Only if men found guilty of rape are surgically castrated.
Aely  Female  Hampshire 17-May-2019 14:28 Message #4740319
With or without anesthetic? (You don't have to answer that)
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 17-May-2019 15:44 Message #4740325
I don’t see why men cannot make decisions which affect women and vice versa although maybe we cannot fully understand the feelings of other genders in the way the same gender can.

I think we should all have the right to decide what happens to our bodies and within our own bodies whether that is abortion or euthanasia. I can understand the arguments put forward by anti-abortionists but I would have thought even they would accept that there are circumstances which would make it wrong to force a woman to go through a pregnancy and have a baby.

We’re all those making the decisions in Alabama male? A lot of women are against abortions too.
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 17-May-2019 18:15 Message #4740332
None of those 25 men's business!
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-May-2019 18:52 Message #4740336
I used to help run a pregnancy testing centre and I was often amazed at the attitudes of some mothers accompanying thier teenage daughters for a test, the more middle class and prosperous looking they were the more likely they were to request information on abortion. They nearly always paraphrased the request by saying they didn't believe in abortion, but thier daughter had better and brighter things to do than have babies, as if anyone else didn't. I do believe that it should be up to the individual what to do with their bodies, I do understand why some feel its something they couldn't do. The problem with the only when the mothers life is in danger thing is it so often goes wrong and both end up dying as was the case with a young woman in Ireland a couple of years ago.

I think for many the fact that its men deciding what is right for individual women feels wrong and a hark back to the bad old days when women were seen as not having the mental capacity to make their own desicions, and of course the whole daughter of Eve stuff. It might feel better if there was a corresponding law to make all fathers contribute financially to the resulting child, with stringent penalties if they didn't. I'd also be happier if there was a corresponding bill to fund free contraception to both men and women and a public awareness campaign to remind men that contraception isn't just a female issue. But then America is truly a foreign country when it comes to many attitudes like those to women and womens bodies, (amongst many other things). One of the many contradictions I see with the American religious right is they fight tooth and nail to ban abortions and limit contraception, but are equally vigorous in support of the death penalty, I'd like to ask at what stage is it OK to kill people?

By excluding rape and incest victims they are putting off the recovery time and risking the mental as well as physical health of the women and girls involved and some of them will be girls, some very young, as young as 11 or 12.
HonestBob  Male  the Central region 17-May-2019 19:14 Message #4740341
"I don’t see why men cannot make decisions which affect women and vice versa"

Me neither. How far do we take this then? How can a mother take a child to have his foreskin cut off?

I have heard some head lines on thin subject, I believe the term they are using is "25 white men..." or at least some media outlets are using this phrase. You can just feel the hatred for men, just dripping off this phrase.

I used to be ok with abortion, I thought for any reason a woman didn't want a kid, it was ok to abort it, as an unwanted child could suffer more when alive and no one wanted it.

I've kind of changed my views completely now though. The reason, and I've stated this before on here in a previous topic on abortion. What about the men? It takes two to conceive the child, but yet only one can kill it.

If I go and have unprotected sex with a woman, she gets pregnant, she gets to decide if I become a dad or not. She can kill my wanted child, or she can force me to be a father, force me to pay for a child I didn't want. Men need a financial abortion option to keep things equal. If a woman wants to have a baby with a man who doesn't want it, she has it on her own.

Also... I'd love to see some type of statistic on how many abortions are actually the result of rape or incest. My gut feeling is that abortions will be used for the 24 year old party girl who has no idea who the father could be, the teenage girl who had sex naively, or the Secretary who is having an affair with the CEO.

I'd also like a ruling that gives men information on a abortion of women he is going to get into a relationship. Similar to the, I think it's Claire's law where a woman can go to a police station and ask about her partners domestic abuse history, I'd like to know about a woman's abortion history.

I couldn't possibly see the sense in forcing a woman to have a child out of incest or rape. How will that end up?... false rape claims will shoot through the roof I suspect.

What if 25 women decided the same thing as the 25 men? What would the war cry be then?
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 17-May-2019 21:28 Message #4740347
"Also... I'd love to see some type of statistic on how many abortions are actually the result of rape or incest"

This is Alabama in the deep south we are talking about...
Aely  Female  Hampshire 17-May-2019 21:57 Message #4740348
The middle class families will have the means to take their errant or unfortunate daughters to a state which allows abortion, to deal with the "problem". The poor families will be stuck with yet another mouth to feed.

I can't really imagine a place like Alabama ever having a state Senate composed of 25 women. They still believe there, apparently, that females don't have the mental capacity to make decisions - about their own bodies anyway.
Andromeda  Female  Berkshire 18-May-2019 08:07 Message #4740362
It reminds me of the young Irish girls coming over to England for abortions.
Blue-Poppy  Female  East Yorkshire 18-May-2019 09:11 Message #4740369
When Ireland was looking to change the eighth amendment on abortion last year there were posters both for and against put up in many towns. Some of the posters voting for the amendment were being torn down by older men.
Fortunately for the female population this amendment was passed but why do men think they have this right to rule what females do?
For the few days prior to voting the population of Ireland swelled enormously as people flew in from various parts of the globe to cast their votes so it just shows how important it was to women.
HonestBob  Male  the Central region 18-May-2019 09:12 Message #4740370
"I can't really imagine a place like Alabama ever having a state Senate composed of 25 women. They still believe there, apparently, that females don't have the mental capacity to make decisions - about their own bodies anyway."

Well let's imagine a time where they did have 13 women and 12 men, instead of the 25 men, and the result came back the same... What then?

What if they did have 25 women and the made a decision about paternity fraud, or false rape allegations... Would the same women be crying that 25 women, shouldn't be allowed a say in a mostly male issue?

That's why I can't take these women seriously.
SQL  Male  Devon 18-May-2019 11:57 Message #4740375
I see no-one has mentioned the rights of the unborn child. A lot of emphasis on 'a woman has the right what to do with her body' though.

It's debatable about this, if you earnestly believe this then in the extreme you would have the right to ban all infections from your body - just try that one on !!

In reality no-one has full control over their bodies, you cannot. by will alone, intentionally stop your heart beating, or stop or start your kidneys filtering your bloodstream. You CAN have your body cut about, some bits of bone or fat removed or bits of plastic inserted. In some circumstances women are allowed to kill a potentially viable foetus.

How many of us would not be here if 'abortion-on-demand' was available 70+ years ago? I know personally of two people who would not be.

I make no apologies for stirring up a hornet's nest - life is precious and despite many, many years of scientific research and countless billions of dollars/pounds/euros (etc.) Homo Sapiens cannot create life as we know it. (Yet even the minute bacteria can.)

The_Snow_Covered_Fool  Male  Cheshire 18-May-2019 12:53 Message #4740379
The person in Alabama having the last say on the matter is female, but she is pro life so it seems that it is a feregone conclusion it will be signed into law !
So it seems it's not just 'men' having a say over what women do with their bodies.


wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-May-2019 18:46 Message #4740399
Has anyone else ever heard of the Ensoulment Debate, it was a hotly debated topic in the medieval church about when the soul entered the body of the unborn child, the general consensus was that when it started to look like a human then it had a soul, before then it didn't. Abortion before about 16 weeks was taken as a miscarriage and after as murder.

SQL, by your reasoning should we attempt to kill anything, bacteria, virus's, dinner, paracites? A unborn child is a paracite on the mothers body, I know thats not a nice way of describing it, but thats what it is, it takes all its nutrients from the body of the mother even at a cost of her own health. I'm not sure you can call a collection of cells incapable of independent life a child. No one wants to have an abortion, but sometimes its the best choice available. Would you force a girl to bear a child foisted on her by incest, when she's not finished growing herself and is to small and undeveloped to carry a child safely without damaging her own health? Would you force a woman who's been raped to carry her rapists child, a daily reminder of soemthing horribly traumatic, what of her mental health in those circumstances, does that not count?
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 18-May-2019 19:49 Message #4740403
Trying to use rational or empathic argument on this subject has never, and will never work. I suspect the only thing that may work is the financial argument, if all who opposed abortion regardless of reason were to pay for the upkeep of a child who would have been aborted they would probably think of lots of reasons why they shouldn't pay whilst still wanting to ban abortion.
To many it seems horrendous to reduce a life to it's financial cost, but the reality is we all have a cost, we just avoid talking about it.

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