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National service.

Would it be welcomed back?

Male
TheHermit  Male  Oxfordshire 5-Dec-2018 23:49 Message #4730284
I've heard some nonsense more than once from callers to a certain radio show who want to leave the European Union. They are clutching at straws because we all know that Britain never will be given the opportunity to leave the European Union. They say that the when the European Union army is formed, there will be conscription, like in the days of national service.

I've never heard so much rubbish, but if it were true, wouldn't it offer a wonderful opportunity for young people from the UK to get a taste of army life? They might even get the chance to invade Russia.

Ignore the last flippant remark. Germany will never invade Russia with a European Union army.
Male
warmundeft  Male  Wrexham 6-Dec-2018 00:15 Message #4730286
"Book of War, page 1, Rule 1: Do not march on Moscow", often attributed to Montgomery, but he was known for 'polishing up' the ideas of others.
Male
TheHermit  Male  Oxfordshire 6-Dec-2018 00:20 Message #4730287
Last time the Germans ignored Moscow, and went for the oil fields in the caucuses, splitting part of their force to take Stalingrad.

Napoleon went to Moscow But the Ruskies had buggered off.
Female
bella111  Female  Devon 6-Dec-2018 00:28 Message #4730288
Actually regardless of the EU or anything else I think the Spoilt Brats of the Millanium should serve at least one year National Service anyway.
Male
TheSarcasticOne  Male  Essex 6-Dec-2018 07:37 Message #4730297
A European Army would never go to war.

The Diplomats would talk most people to death.

1 - Then the Eurocrats would step in and say it was not safe and the a Commission was needed to see if it could be made safe.

2 - Then the Eurocrats would step in and say that a Viability study was needed followed by a Commission to check the Viability was carried out correctly.

3 - Then the Eurocrats would step in and say that with the new Viability study, there needed to be a new safety study carried out.

Go back to point 1
Male
HonestBob  Male  the Central region 6-Dec-2018 07:44 Message #4730298
Well it would depend on who has to do it.

I've often joked about if I came to power and needed a population increase, I'd institute national service... watch how many girls get pregnant to avoid it!

If they came out and said everyone must do two years national service at 16 years old, and I do mean everyone, women, Muslims, blacks ect then it would be fair.

It would not be fair if they ripped working class white men away, and forced it upon them, leaving the Muslims, blacks and women to get up to god knows what.

On the whole I like the idea, I was in the TA from 16-19, not the real army, but gave me a taste, and I didn't like it.

I wonder if it could be linked to voting rights. If you haven't done national service, at least two years by the age of 25, you lose your right to vote. I wonder how many people would forfeit their right to vote.

Would people of 16-25 appreciate what the right to vote actual means? How valuable the vote is!

Would a person just back from completing national service get preference over someone who didn't do it, in let's say enrolment to college or university? Would they get picked first for a job? Would they jump the queue for a council house? Would it entitle them to a state pension?

Would it be paid? Was it paid back in the day?
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Dec-2018 10:57 Message #4730304
Why would it need to be military service? Don't forget there are other armed services than the army, theres the navy and airforce too, it might be good for our armed services to have a bunch of tech savy young recruits, war is getting more and more high tech and long range.

Why would BAME people be less likely to have to do national service? I seem to remember when my dad did it, you went in between the ages of 18 and 21 so if you were a student you still didn't escape.

Would national service have to be military? There have been plenty of people say it should involve civil projects, maybe those would be more child friendly?
Male
warmundeft  Male  Wrexham 6-Dec-2018 11:04 Message #4730305
Forget universal equal treatment. Bring in levels of citizenship based upon service to the community.

Such as the idea that Bob advances, make the right to vote dependent upon having given your time and effort towards the benefit of the people around you. Although hard won in the past, it does appear now that the franchise is regarded very lightly, if at all, by many.

Some definitions of qualifying service would, I think, be easy: the defence, caring, public protection and youth training professions I'm confident that most would agree would qualify for the highest level of citizenship. Would, for instance, the inclusion of sewerage workers and refuse collectors in the public protection category invoke discontent ?
Bearing in mind that some folks have sound physical constraints for the practice, how might regular blood donors fit ?

If at the lower levels of citizenship, people are denied the likes of tertiary education, social housing and employment, what might be the consequences of society having to accommodate the 'less well off' ?

Does anyone recall 'Starship Troopers' or 'Soylent Green' ?
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 6-Dec-2018 14:03 Message #4730309
If the students, snowflakes and the youngsters find out about this they will be campaigning to leave the EU as soon as possible.
They even need safe places at university when it all gets to much for them so how would they react under live fire.

Another thing, how would they get them off their phones.
Male
TheHermit  Male  Oxfordshire 6-Dec-2018 14:31 Message #4730310
Well it is just a piece of scaremongering barney, put about by those who can't accept the fact that our politicians didn't let us leave the European Union.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Dec-2018 15:24 Message #4730315
Definitely bring back conscription - it would teach a lot of young people respect for authoritiy, and would ease the drain on the Benefits system. It would solve a lot of problems. Abandoning conscription was one of the worst things to happen here.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Dec-2018 18:49 Message #4730329
Vic, How do you teach people "respect for authority"? I was part of the generation that was brought up to respect anyone in a uniform, teachers, people older than myself etc, but a lot of that went by the wayside at the way I was treated by those in authority. Respect has to go both ways and so often it didn't, I ended up with little respect for anyone, including myself and no amount of punishment could make me do anything, when life appears all stick and no carrot or the carrot is impossibly far away, why should we respect those who wield the stick? It took me years to learn to respect myself and others and even now I have different levels, one basic one to all things, and then anything on top of that is earned. I'm always fascinated when people talk about teaching others respect for authority, what do they mean and how do they intend to go about it and why do they think it was lost in the first place?
Male
flowerpotman  Male  Dumfries and Galloway 6-Dec-2018 19:04 Message #4730333
I did 2 years National Service in the army from 1959 to 1961 I trained to be a PT Instructor and was promoted to Lance Corporal. I enjoyed all the sport and the comradeship and made a lot of friends from all walks of life.I was paid the princely sum of 25 shillings a week(old money)
I think it would be good for young people to perhaps do 1 year of public service or charity work before they start work or go to university.
Male
OTB  Male  Dorset 6-Dec-2018 20:04 Message #4730341
Respect for Authority?

I’m too young to have experienced national service but, at 19, I served 3 months at Haslar Detention Centre, (Gosport), and experienced the “Short, Sharp Shock” of being incarcerated.

If any of you have ever seen the film, “A Clockwork Orange”, you would have viewed, (just about), an exact recreation of the experience I endured under the penal regime given to young offenders back in the 70s.

Living in one of three dorms, (of approx 80 inmates each), all of us were conditioned / trained / forced to endure physical hard labour, (circuit training, running the mile, other disciplines), several times per week while being intimidated, bullied and forced to comply with the severe rules and discipline metered out in such an environment.

Me? I found the experience to be both surreal AND enlightening and while some inmates buckled under the strain, (with at least one attempting suicide and several requiring psychological treatment), I, personally, discovered a side to my own character that excelled under such duress.

I came out of such an experience having learned valuable lessons about myself AND the benefits of structure, discipline and planning when it came to dealing with situations above and beyond anything many folk might ever have to experience in their lives.

There was a certain irony though.

The reasons I had ended up at Haslar was to do with my own role of being a leader in my own skinhead clan, (acting as a lieutenant organising strategy), so it was not such a stretch of the imagination to learn that I managed to rise to the top, guiding others under such a regime while incarcerated within Haslar Detention Centre.

And, before anyone suggests, “Being locked up allows folk to learn new (negative) ways of re-offending”.

NO.

I can’t answer for others BUT … that “Short, Sharp, Shock” proved to become one of the most valuable lessons I learned in my (early) life.

I mean; I learned that pursuing perfection, doing EXACTLY as instructed or told (and being rewarded for such action), delivered me a keen sense of personal satisfaction and pride … and I learned that such outcomes and rewards … granted me certain privileges.

As a 19 year old man, (boy), I learned that my own actions, my own deliberations, my own efforts and outlooks were FUNDAMENTAL in shaping every aspect of how life could or would be in my own personal future.

I’m guessing, (because I can’t know), that National Service could deliver, exactly, that same kind of discipline to anyone in the position of having to perform it.

But do I think National Service should be brought back?

No.

Female
eurostar  Female  Merseyside 6-Dec-2018 20:36 Message #4730344
could the insurance companies deal with the amount of claims from snowflakes who didn't want to do national service?..seriously, it happens now...it would get worse.
unless they figured out some sort of disclaimer ?
Male
OTB  Male  Dorset 6-Dec-2018 21:25 Message #4730352
At the risk of turning this thread into the OTB show again, (no. I’m joking), may I share just one anecdote relating to Haslar Detention Centre?

If you and I were among a group of friends relating stories, this scenario would be mere chat, mere conversation.

My tale, loosely, relates to the concept of National Service and the idea of being “forced” to learn discipline or COMPLY with a regime. A very violent regime in this instant.

So … The worst, most dangerous screw in Haslar Detention Centre was an officer nicknamed Benny Hill, by the way he kept his hat pulled fiercely down over his eyes … and Benny Hill was an officer you NEVER, EVER wanted to fall out with. (I mean he was violent … really violent).

Anyway … as YARD AND GYM ORDERLY, (the most coveted job in the whole establishment – as an inmate), it had been my job, (amongst other jobs), to make the bed of the officer on duty that night … which I duly did.

With 24 hours before I was due for release, I made Benny Hill’s bed as an “apple turnover”, meaning … I folded the sheets in such a way as to make it impossible to get into! (The bed looked normal but it would have been impossible to slip in between the covers).

It was my way of telling one of Haslar's most dangerous, psychotic officers, (prior to me leaving), that I had one up on him … and I felt quite good about that … though it was a crazy thing to have done because I knew he would have gone ballistic.

But why would I care? I was leaving tomorrow :-)

(Pause)

On the day of my release, early that next morning, a shift of 80 or 90 of us shuffled into the communal dining hall to be met by an insane, incandescent, raging Benny Hill. :-(

And my heart sank … and I felt a chill feeling of terror envelope me.

“F+ck. Jeez. Oh my God. WHY? did I do the apple turnover thing?”, I found myself thinking.

Benny Hill had, obviously, not appreciated my apple turnover bed joke :-(

And then we heard him.

We all heard him scream, “YARD ORDERLY. YARD ORDERLY. GET HERE. I mean NOW!”

The blood drained from my body … and I started to rise out of my seat.

But it was too late.

The new Yard Orderly, a keen, bright young chap, had already stood up and had walked to the front of the hall and, by doing so, all of us witnessed him being beaten black and blue … by a VERY, VERY upset and violent Officer Benny Hill.

I attempted to raise my hand, tried to rise … but fellow inmates pulled me back down … and within the hour, I was a free man, stepping out into my life.

I've never forgotten that episode though ... and today it would be Officer Benny Hill behind bars.
Male
HonestBob  Male  the Central region 7-Dec-2018 09:20 Message #4730373
"Why would BAME people be less likely to have to do national service?"

Had to Google BAME there... thought you were using some kind of racial slur there.

Well I await to be proved wrong in this, the way I see it... these bames, when they self identify, even if they were born in this land, and speak the exact same accent as I do, they call themselves Pakistani, Indian, and so on. This causes me to somewhat question their allegiance to queen and country, so to speak.

Also, some of the practices they may be required to undertake in national service may go against their religion, it may interfere with their prayer, it may not be halal approved food served to them. You see where I'm going.

"Would national service have to be military? There have been plenty of people say it should involve civil projects, maybe those would be more child friendly?"

It Wouldn't have to, although I'd like to see it being military centred. They bames mentioned above, they would end up getting national service hours for painting their local mosque, or teaching inner city youths not to steal or fight. It would only further segregate them from the British people, if they do their national service deep in their closed communities.

For example, if all young men were to do two years military service at 16 or 18, I think forcing whites, blacks, Muslims to share close quarters, work together and bond together, would serve the country very well too. It may form multicultural relationships and friendships that may last a lifetime. Would probably do much more for diversity than any other silly program.

Not to mention the physical fitness side of things. The benefits of having lots of young men, trained and fit, with some sort of national pride and purpose, can't be a bad thing... in case anything happens.

Another end result could be, more men willing to volunteer to be part time fire fighters, coast guards, mountain rescue, first responders and so on, once their mandatory service ends.

More child friendly? So 16 year old mothers can drop their three kids off before doing her national service in a beauty parlour? Not sure I get the child friendly angle...

And if men have to do it... no reason why women shouldn't be put thought the exact same thing! If I was the running the show, it would be segregated males in one camp, females in another.
Male
warmundeft  Male  Wrexham 7-Dec-2018 10:14 Message #4730380
Whenever the subject of national service arises, it is almost inevitably assumed that one of the armed services becomes responsible for the initial training of conscriptees. I am unable to say much regarding that situation because, during my initial Service training, all present were volunteers and whether or not we took to the rules necessarily imposed upon us, the bottom line was that we had entered into a contract willingly (although possibly not with our eyes fully open - and at age fifteen that is to be expected).
However, for those compelled to undergo such training, it should come as no surprise either to find that there are problems resulting from 'attitude'.

Can someone please say why 'we' (society, the population at large) think it reasonable to expect NCOs and officers to make good the deficiencies, gaps and in some cases bottomless chasms in the personal capabilities of putative conscriptees. After all, these may well be in their late teens, approaching adulthood who, I believe it reasonable to expect, should at least be capable of attending to their own personal hygiene and possess some sense of self-preservation. Concerning individuals who lack such basic abilities, should not those responsible for the trainees in their earlier years be held to account for their failure ?

To go some way towards answering why those people are called upon to fill the gaps, might it be that their organisations have been relied upon in the recent past for example, to collect domestic waste (the 'dustmen's strike) and to fight fires, in addition to what might be considered their normal duty ?

So, Sir and Madam, who do you expect to come and clean up your mess ?
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 8-Dec-2018 11:03 Message #4730428
Good point W, maybe its the parents that need the national service, the ones who either won't discipline thier children and the helicopter parents who hover around interfering, micromanaging thier childs life, their education and generally leaving stressed and incapable of doing anything for themselves. What about the parents who organise and schedule their childrens lives so minutely that the children grow up having no idea of how to entertain themselves. The ones who indulge thier childrens fady eating to the point where as young adults they will only eat pizza, burgers and breakfast cereal and drink coke, I'm sure many of us remember battling a small child to eat something and being the small child made to eat something we didn't like, but there is a middle way that respects both.
Male
tumbleweed  Male  Gloucestershire 8-Dec-2018 11:27 Message #4730430
When I was waiting at the doctors, a mother came in with 2 kids. One was a baby, and she had an appointment for the baby, the other was a little brat, about 7 or 8 years old. He started picking up leaflets and chucking them everywhere. And then telling his mum to shut up when she said don't do that. He carried on doing it.

I didn't know whether to get involved, and after glancing at some of the others in the waiting room, and shaking our heads, I caught the childs eye, and he gave me an evil look, a bit like Damien in the Omen, or Del boys Damien.

I really wanted to clip the little git around the ear ( a good old clip around the ear never hurt anyone ). The future of our country is in the hands of these little twats. And the mother? What a waste of space she seemed to be. That kid, at that age, talking to her like that and carrying on with their destruction.

I don't know about national service, the death penalty seems more appropriate.
Male
SandyBeach  Male  Lincolnshire 8-Dec-2018 17:11 Message #4730437
Wonder what would have happened if the mother had clipped the kid around the ear?

How many do-gooders in the surgery waiting room would have "Oh you not allowed to do that now"

And people wonder why there are so many little brats about.
Male
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 9-Dec-2018 06:58 Message #4730480
Vic..."it would teach a lot of young people respect for authoritiy"

Authority needs to earn that respect. Respect is a two way thing and needs to be mutual. There is a lot of authority here and now that I won't respect because they abuse their position.

If conscription be brought back I should imagine there wouldn't be enough 'military' projects to occupy the recruits so maybe community projects would have to be undertaken.

Not sure that I agree with conscription though. Sod that for a game of soldiers.


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