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Has Labour Become An Anti-Working Class, Anti-Democratic Middle-Class Elitist Party?

Discussion Of Trends & Memes At The Labour Conference.

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Timmee  Male  Hampshire 2-Oct-2018 13:08 Message #4726306
If, like me, you are a long time Labour voter, (or even if you're a long time Labour hater) then you might be interested this short & sharp online audio discussion of last week's Labour Party Conference and what went on there.

Link to follow.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 2-Oct-2018 13:10 Message #4726307
Link mentioned above. Relevant discussion is the first 9min 40sec of the podcast.
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 2-Oct-2018 13:57 Message #4726308
Lots like me who cannot follow links, cannot be arsed either, best to state your case to gain more interested folk ,I presume.
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 2-Oct-2018 16:53 Message #4726310
I'm another one who rarely follows links but I'm glad I followed this one. Spiked have a lot of interesting things to say and they echo many of my own thoughts. I recently said that sometimes the Conservatives are more socialist than Labour and this keeps being confirmed. For years i have thought the Conservatives have been more help to the working classes and underprivilged than labour but without all the false promises and rhetoric.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 2-Oct-2018 18:38 Message #4726314
Me to Zodiac, I have no speakers so can't listen to stuff.

I think the old party lines are disapearing, the old Labour heartlands no longer have the industries they used to support and newer industries tend to be less unionised, I just think its a different demographic now. I've been watching bits of the Labour and Tory conferences, one of the things that struck me was the average ages of delegates, the Tories seem much older than Labour, another thing that struck me was how white the Tory delegates are.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 2-Oct-2018 19:32 Message #4726317
"Lots like me who cannot follow links, cannot be arsed either, best to state your case to gain more interested folk , I presume." Zodiac1

It's unfortunate that you cannot follow posted links Zodiac. I sypathise, and hope you soon gain that facility. As to your not being 'arsed': - that's down to you.

I provided the link for those that have both the ability and the inclination to follow it. I have described in my title what is discussed, and I pointed out that the clip is an easily digestible 9.5 minutes.

Very brief details for those unable or unwilling to follow link - but still curious:

3 libertarian journalists put forward the propostion that the Labour conference showed that the party is composed of two warring factions (Socialist Corbynistas - activists and minority of M.P.s vs. Blairite managerial wing - majority of M.P.s, Lords, & donors) Panalists say that despite their mutual hostility, both Blairite and Corbyn wings are united by one thing. They both hate Brexit, and fear genuine people's democracy - Populism. Both wings want to manage and manipulate voters, rather than actually implement the voters's true wishes. Panelists point out that there is almost zero representation of pro-Brexit opinion at the conference (despite a very large number of Labour constituencies voting for Brexit.) One of the 3 panels recounts and instance a young North Easterner making a platform speech saying Labour should be wary of not representing it Brexit voters. Apparently this delegte was booed and jeered by the mass ranks of conference.

I could write lots but that's enough I think.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 3-Oct-2018 10:54 Message #4726340
I don't think Labour hate populism, just right wing populism, they're fine with it when it agrees with them, what is Corbynism/momentum if not populism?
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 3-Oct-2018 14:06 Message #4726355
The like populism if it agrees with them? Okay
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 3-Oct-2018 18:43 Message #4726370
Yes Timmee, that fine. Dosent' everyone like populism if it agrees with them, most people like being popular and having people agree with them, have you noticed how we're more likely to think someone intelligent if they agree with us? Thing is theres all the rightwing, Brexiteering, anti-immigrant populism and then theres the leftwing, anti-Brexit, muliticultural, multiracial populism and I suspect never the twain shall meet.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 3-Oct-2018 19:59 Message #4726378
An Assessment:

"Both of Britain’s established political parties now exist in name alone. The Conservatives are led by managerial technocrats rather than traditional Tories. Labour has become a clique of the metropolitan middle classes whose idea of ‘labour’ is posting two tweets an hour."

[Spiked article on the main parties]
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 3-Oct-2018 20:02 Message #4726379
Article from which quote was extracted.
eurostar  Female  Merseyside 3-Oct-2018 20:21 Message #4726380
Labour like the unions have so changed and not for the better, they have become the rich cats, and fat on looking after themselves, year by year they look at changing/doing nothing, it's all about themselves and wasteing fed up of them
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 4-Oct-2018 11:02 Message #4726399
Interestingly theres an upsurge in union membership with some staf at MacDonalds and Weatherspoons among others going on strike, I can't say I blame them, they're fighting for the sort of working conditions that their grandparents generation took for granted. I think we forget how hard won things like holiday and sick pay were and we've by and large been happy to let those things slip and die on the alter of capitalism and now we wonder why there are so many fat cats and societies so unequal.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 4-Oct-2018 12:23 Message #4726404
I'll just insert here (for anyone who mistakes me for 'Alt-Right' economic neo-liberal) that I'm pretty socialist in my economic outlook and very much pro union membership & rights.

tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 4-Oct-2018 12:32 Message #4726406
It’s not surprising that the far left are recruiting to the unions again to back extremist group Momentum and this will be an infiltration and ultimate controlling of the Labour Party which is shameful.
The fast food strike is a demand by UberEats for more pay per delivery/mileage and they’ve managed to get a bit of support from a handful of comrades at McD etc. I believe the McD workers are not only asking for more than minimum wage but also above the living wage. They are not expecting anyth8ng from the strike other than disruption and more far left recruits.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 4-Oct-2018 12:46 Message #4726409
I don't think there's any doubt the two main parties have jostled for the center ground over the last number of years. The Labour Governments of Blair and Brown were not particularly left leaning, I suppose the question is why? Were they reacting to the way the country had already gone or were they leading the change?
You could say that left wing politics with all the union stuff and strikes for this, that and the other, was not popular and people didn't seem willing to vote for it. So, Labour's only chance of power was to soften it's stance and be less left wing.

Now we have a different scenario - the young (mostly) have jumped onboard the Corbyn express and left wing stuff is popular again. These young people have known nothing else, so it's new and "exciting".
We shall see if they get into power and implement true left wing policies, the like of which this country hasn't seen for 40 years...
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 4-Oct-2018 16:34 Message #4726412
I would like to see the young with a bigger say but they do seem very easily manipulated and do not have a good track record politically. Remember all the young middle class capitalists camping out in London (until the evening when they went to the pub or home to mummy and daddy) in the fight against capitalism.
Remember the rioting young thugs and thieves wrecking shops and and looting? Forcing ordibnary working people, probably more disadvantaged in life than the rioters, out of jobs and out of their homes.
Left wing strikes, often leading to violence, always hit the ordinary working person the hardest as does most illegal violent activities.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 4-Oct-2018 18:47 Message #4726415
Rather than get into refuting what tsumnami and others have said I'm going to ask a series of questions instead, mostly because I'm not a Corbyn fan but I do think he's articulating what many people are feeling, so.

Is the minimum wage enough to live on?

Is the "living wage" enough to live on rather than exist on?

Is momentum really that extreme and hard left?

Why is it shameful that they are such a powerhouse in the Labour party when they're a grassroots movement?

Why and by whom is there a belief that nothing more than disruption will come of this action and more "far left" recruits?

If momentum is so popular and so effective why arn't other political parties, namely the Conservatives doing their own version of it to engage the grass roots and have policy set by what matters to ordinary members rather than thought up by central office?
Andromeda  Female  Berkshire 4-Oct-2018 21:55 Message #4726422
I think Momentum is popular in the same way Hitler and other evil leaders and groups have been popular.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 5-Oct-2018 10:15 Message #4726431
Do you not think thats pushing things a bit far, to compare Momentum with Hitler?
bella111  Female  Devon 5-Oct-2018 10:50 Message #4726433
No it is not too far they are a bunch of thugs just like Hitler was.
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 5-Oct-2018 10:53 Message #4726434
I had the same thought when I first read andromeda's post but thinking on she could be spot on. Many of us only associate Hitler with the war and exterminating Jews but he didn't begin in that way. From wiki.

Adolf Hitler's rise to power began in Germany in September 1919 when Hitler joined the political party known as the Deutsche Arbeiterpartei – DAP (German Workers' Party). The name was changed in 1920 to the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei – NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known as the Nazi Party). This political party was formed and developed during the post-World War I era.

Throughout the world we see extremists forcing their beliefs on others and gaining support through bullying and fear and we often see the misery it brings and the catastrophic end results.
barney  Male  Surrey 5-Oct-2018 11:28 Message #4726436
" Is Momentum really that extreme and hard left ? ".

Perhaps you should ask the MPs who are being threatened with deselection and Anna Eagle whose Constituency office was attacked for speaking out against Corbyn.

I watched a Labour MP being interviewed last night and you could tell he was scared to say anything about Corbyn.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 5-Oct-2018 11:32 Message #4726437
I see many people complaining because the tube drivers have gone on strike today - prepare yourself folks, that's a taste of things to come if Momentum, er sorry I mean Labour win the next election...
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 5-Oct-2018 12:50 Message #4726439
I thought Anna Neagle gave a particualry fine performance in 'Odette'.

But enough of the mickey-taking. Like some of the others, I think Momentum looks particularly intolerant of anyone with whom they disagree. Also they appear to provide a happy home for the wackiest post-modernist theorists and proponents of race & identity politics.

Note the recent pronoucement of Labour M.P. Dawn Bulter - that Jamie Oliver's recipie for Jamaican Jerk Chicken is unacceptable 'Cultural Appropriation' and must be stopped. Next she'll be suggesting us white folks wear chains as an apology for Slavery! (See online accounts of the comedy hoax research papers composed in post-modernist language and sent to P.C. 'Grievance Politics' Magazines & Websites. They were swallowed whole and then published by 'serious qualified academics' as serious and credible research.)

As a Labour voter since 1982, I can't vote for a party that is run either by the lunatic race politics of Momentum, or Blairite global corporatists who want want rule from Brussells, and the abolition of nation states and national citizen democracy.

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