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Transgender Culture

Our, ever changing, society

OTB  Male  Dorset 14-Aug-2018 00:42 Message #4723014
I want to bring up something, offer a ‘pre-amble’ to get some things placed into perspective … and then ask readers to offer any heartfelt, constructive views.

Trangender child?

As a background, we all know that many embedded social views can act like a juggernaut when it comes to acknowledging change within a society, meaning that shifts in outlook, (or acceptance of certain cultures or lifestyles), don’t always happen particularly swiftly.

Owning people back in the American deep south comes to mind. As does conscientious objectors being executed by their own side in world war one.

And like those two examples mentioned above, issues of race, apartheid and even whole cultures being forced, by missionaries, to live and worship in a particular, preferred way can now, with hindsight, be looked back upon as being unacceptable.

Today, with gay, lesbian, bi or trans individuals free to be open regarding their sexuality, the world does seem to be a more accepting place, over much of the planet anyway.

So … while we might be a little surprised at the world sometimes, I’d like to think that many, if not all of us, might simply blame our own receding years for not quite “getting it” sometimes … and with that said, I want to ask you a simple question.

How would you react or consider a situation where a 12 year old, (niece, nephew, grandchild or child of a friend), categorically stated that they felt they wished to a) Change their name to a name of the opposite sex and b) Seriously consider changing their gender?

We hear of certain celebrities admitting they knew they were gay at a young age, (though couldn’t share it) and we, likely, have all met a ‘tomboy’ type girl who never did makeup and preferred football or whatever. (Though, of course, football today is a joint gender pursuit).

Thing is … (we are pondering)

Could these feelings pass … all part of a young person exploring their emotions, feelings and the big, wide world they are discovering? Could a child just be a tomboy? Could social media, the LGBT “movement” or high profile news stories regarding trans issues be interpreted, (by a young mind), to make them think they were in the wrong body rather than simply call themselves a tomboy?

OR, like a small but growing group of children in this country, is it possible that … it could simply be a fact … that a 12 year old feels they wished they were the opposite sex?

If that was diagnosed, apparently, a course of drug treatment is available to pause puberty entirely, giving a family a chance to see if the child grows out of it? (My words)

And if they didn't? Well. The last scenario would involve gender procedures later in life.

In our case … our young person has decided she no longer likes the boys name she had chosen her friends and teachers to call her so … perhaps life, (eventually), won’t be as complicated as we were anticipating. Though, if it were … I’m sure those close and involved will cope … but goodness, at 61, I thought I couldn’t be surprised any more.

Your thoughts?
Horiss  Male  central London 14-Aug-2018 09:56 Message #4723025
It's simply for me. Each to there own. I've an open mind. But a 12 year old no. 18 yes. If I'd consented to one of my kids wanting change and it backfired it would be my fault. So 18 yes anything goes.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 14-Aug-2018 10:27 Message #4723029
Why are sporty girls Tomboys? I think in the 21st century this is an image we should re-examine, to me the term is redolent of patriarchal and hetrosexual fears about what girls and women should be. I was never a frilly girl and I've always liked to spend part of everyday outside, for years as a child there were only boys around for me to play with so I mostly played boys games, girl stuff was done at school, I was often called a Tomboy.

Personally I don't think drug therapy and definately not surgery should be done at such a young age, unless in the rare (I think) cases where gender was in doubt from babyhood and the parents were told to bring the child up as one or the other. I think its best if the family supports the young persons choice, if its part of a rebellious phase then acceptance will make it last about a week, but make it gradual, move into it slowly before coming out to the world. Its hard to go back into the closet once you've come out.

If you've always been secure in your gender and/or sexuality then I think its hard to imagine what it must be like to grow up knowing that something is fundamentally different and few things seem as fundamental as gender. But not just gender roles are constructs on a deep cellular level it's not always as cut and dried as we think, we're used to the idea that XY chromosomes mean you're a male and XX a female, but look a bit deeper and that not always the case, I can't explain it as I don't understand it enough myself.

I do wonder why it has come up now though, is it something thats always been there and we're open enough and brave enough to break taboo's? Is it environmental, so many of the chemicals we use are oestrogenic, world wide and across all species we are seeing a drop in sperm counts? Could it even be evolutionary? The Y chromosome is a rather battered object and is becoming less able to work properly, could we be seeing an evolutionary shift towards sex change as we see in some other species, or hermaphrodism or are we even moving towards parthnogenesis? For a better understanding of the Y chromsome and its problems read 'Adams Curse' by Brian Sykes, its an older book, but an easy read.
nellieredshoes  Female  West Yorkshire 14-Aug-2018 12:06 Message #4723040
What wh said.
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 14-Aug-2018 14:11 Message #4723056
Why is most of this about 'tomboy girls'. What about the boys who have tendencies to dress in female attire.

I think children should be left alone to grow up in their own way and find their own feet in life.

Sadly, I think sometimes the parents are too blame for encouraging a child to go opposite simply because they (the parents) especially wanted a boy when a girl turned up or vice verse. I know of two families where this has happened and each child changed when he became of age, encourage by the parent. Now in early thirties, they are both in a state of confusion.

I accept that every has a masculine and feminine side but sometimes I think we shouldnt interfere with nature, and certainly I dont approve of 'designer' babies at all. Sorry if this offends some people.
OTB  Male  Dorset 14-Aug-2018 14:34 Message #4723059
"Why is most of this about 'tomboy girls'. What about the boys who have tendencies to dress in female attire?" asks Victoriana.

I'm sorry, Victoriana. I guessed someone might pick me up on that but it was extremely difficult to pack so much of what I wished to express on the equivalent of one sheet of A4 paper, (the max a Midsummer post can be), so I used the archetype of The Tomboy as an example.

As to your other comments?

I challenge you to tell me whether personal issues at home, troubled parents, youthful exploration, effects of puberty, nature herself or just plain mischief causes a 12 year old to fantasize or daydream about changing their gender.

I, assure you, it is far easier, (and lazier), for you to just say, "Let nature take its course" but that doesn't account for the 21st century world of social media, internet access, smartphone culture, peer pressure and a vast array of additional everyday factors that now impact on any little life growing up in this technological age.

And you think we need this dilemma?

As to your bizarre comment about parents being to blame for wishing for a boy but getting a girl, that is a topic and subject about a million miles away from this thread topic.

Return to the Victorian era, Victoriana. :-(
tumbleweed  Male  Gloucestershire 14-Aug-2018 15:01 Message #4723061
Even back in the day when I was at school, it was easy to see some of the potential transgender people emerging.

First 3 years ( 11-13 yr old, 1968 - 1970) at a mixed school, then moved area to all boys school ( 14 - 15 yrs, 1971 - 1972 ). As each year went by, it seemed to become fairly obvious the potential sexual orientations of a few at least, and their gender preferences. There was a lot of fighting at the all boys school, but there also seemed a sympathetic attitude towards the more effeminate ones. Only the 'wannabe hard cases' usually got involved in the fights.

Then Glam rock came along, and some had a field day after leaving school, all the make up etc. One I used to hang around with a bit, a good lad called Sam, used to go round his house and listen to one of our favourites, T-Rex. I saw him a couple of years later in a nightclub. He was all glammed up and living his dream as Samantha. I lost touch with a lot of them after the school years, but I know of two of them who 'transgendered' , although I am not sure of how far they went with it, or whether my terminology is correct.
OTB  Male  Dorset 14-Aug-2018 15:16 Message #4723063
You make a brilliant point, Tumbleweed.

Yes. The flower power philosophy of the later 60's assisted or inspired the likes of Bolan and Bowie to knock off the sharp, hard, edges of the very masculine pop star image of the day and that path led right to the amazing Glam Rock era of the early 70's.

And sure. None of us cared seeing The Sweet's Steve Priest pouting effeminately in a long flowing dress. :-)

I guess that time period eventually led to society becoming far more tolerant ... though even famous icons like Freddy Mercury kept their true sexuality a secret till nearly the end.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Aug-2018 19:39 Message #4723082
Who knows what it feels like, to be in someone else's mind.

I am concerned about children and their choice to change gender, only because evidence shows some have demanded to be changed back, as if surgery is a modern easy instant fix option. There was a surgeon in the news a few months ago, based in London, in trouble for assuming he knew which sex intersex babies should be. The surgery he performed at that age would likely be irreversible. That's my point, after some interactions with gender clinics, I am concerned also that consultants who have medical power, have their own agenda and interests, rather than he interests of the patient.

One transwoman I listened to a month ago stated there is very little support, and a transman I know was left for years on hormone treatment with no follow up or monitoring.

Having a son with high functioning autism, aged 35, brings in yet another perspective. I had brought the issue up at an autism meeting last year, that I had read a high number of people choosing gender change also have autism when tested. Now I am not saying adults or children should not have gender change because they have autism, but the obsessions that can go with autism does bring in a further complication of decision making for such an individual.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 14-Aug-2018 23:11 Message #4723104
i have not seen a tranny that "looks right" tbh, and the two people i know who have gone down this route regretted doing so.
OTB  Male  Dorset 15-Aug-2018 08:46 Message #4723109
Thanks for the input so far. It has been interesting reading such thoughtful comments.
Typically, the slang word"Tranny" refers to a cross-dressing transvestite, Fosy. Often a male wishing to dress in female clothing.

Are the two people you are referring to transvestites or transsexuals because there is a gulf of difference between the two?

And anyway ... It is just, plain, ignorant to use such slang.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 15-Aug-2018 12:18 Message #4723119
"It is just, plain, ignorant to use such slang."

oh, so PC aren't we !

as for the questions you ask ?
nah ! you are far to turdy to warrant a reply.
OTB  Male  Dorset 15-Aug-2018 12:37 Message #4723120
Thanks for your valuable contribution, Fosy. x
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PrincessFruitBat  Female  Essex 16-Aug-2018 12:07 Message #4723205
I sometimes wonder what might have happened to me had I been born of “modern” parents into today's society.

I was a tomboy. I wasn’t sporty, although I did play football. I played with toy guns (and real ones sometimes), I played with knives, went fishing, set fires and built camps in the woods, I wanted to be a cub. I thought brownies were lame. I hated dolls...loved Airfix, Lego and train sets.

I desperately wanted to be a boy. I used to wear trousers all the time, when not in school, and was often mistaken for a boy with my lace-up shoes and urchin hair cut.

In today’s world, I may have had my wishes pandered to, which would have been a huge mistake.

Devon-Wench  Female  Devon 16-Aug-2018 12:19 Message #4723206
Actually Fosy it is nothing to do with PC.
You have used descriptive words that have no correlation with each other tbh.
Some transvestite behaviour can be chaps wearing feminine underwear secretly with no wish or intent to change gender for example!

Devon-Wench  Female  Devon 16-Aug-2018 12:28 Message #4723207
I think you make a very good point. My thoughts are with the terminology of the 'boy' element. These labels do refer to children, before becoming sexualised.
I recall a great scene (can't remember where from now) where a young chap was conversing and being dramatic about his sexuality. Saying I'm 'gay'. The response was as follows:
'Have you slept with a woman?'
'Have you slept with a man?'
Well then, you are not gay!'
'Shut up, you are just a virgin!'

Made me smile. So in reference to your 'I desperately wanted to be a boy' I reckon it was more about being allowed and to enjoy different activities, but were being bound by the 'social conditioning' that deemed we could only play within the old fashioned 'appropriate' activities. You liked the activities that were boyish, rather than actually wanting to be a boy - but as a young children this is the only way we could voice our choices.

It seems that you were pandered to, of sorts, in that you were allowed to play how you wanted to at the time. And nothing at all came of it regards to your gender.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Aug-2018 12:55 Message #4723210
I agree with Beach Fosy, on using the term "tranny". It is derogatory and insulting, especially if you don't know the difference as Beach described.

Anyway, should we really be bothered what people look like, if they are happier in themselves, and kind and thoughtful individuals.

I have to confess, I had been very isolated from such social circles when I started to work in North Manchester. One patient, who died quite a while ago made me feel uncomfortable, but I didn't know why. He was an elderly 75 plus, tall, well built, but always had his hair like a female style and wore make-up, but men's clothes. The lead GP always used to see him, but then when I did see him one to one, he was lovely, gentle, kind, very intelligent. What he must have gone through in his era?? That must have been 10 years ago even so.

Really, we should just give people a chance and look for more important things that affect us all socially, than how people look.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Aug-2018 13:11 Message #4723212

I was born in 1954 with 2 x much older sisters. I know my parents wanted a boy, but I felt I had an unusual upbringing because I was a very isolated child in the country. My main "pal" was my grandfather who let me "assist" him with all workshop things like repairing bodywork on his old Riley, sharpening the lawnmower, stuff in his wonderful tool shed...garage. He was an ex chief engineer in the Navy.

I was always in shorts, cropped hair, biggest ambition was to have a go kart, but grandpa made me a summer sledge out of Arthur Mee's Encylopaedia for Children. A real sledge, but with metal runners so I could whizz down the steep grassy banking next to the house.

I remember trying to wee like a boy and filling my wellington!

My mum only bought me a bike after she caught me riding my sister's bike with no tires, just on the rims.

On the other side though, I learned to embroider from my grandmother before I went to school. I could knit. I had a black doll, a boy doll, a silver cross doll's pram, a train set and best of all, my Matchbox car set and garage.

I could have been a prime candidate for gender confusion but I didn't "feel" anything strong enough to seek being a male.

Later one, one of my manager's commented she had a male brain in a female body, but really, I think we are all just a spectrum of gender in all variations. I feel about 75% female and 25% male but the latter part might be from being quite tall enough for people to be rude about that as well.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 16-Aug-2018 23:41 Message #4723283
"Actually Fosy it is nothing to do with PC."
Really ??

"Anyway, should we really be bothered what people look like, if they are happier in themselves,"
i didnt say i was bothered about what they looked like per se, but was passing comment on my observations of such people.

and of the two i know, and those i have seen being interviewed in the media etc, they are anything but happy, indeed the impression i am left with is that they are lost souls.

around here the term tranny is used for both "sexual/vestite" which can be confusing, so having to clarify the context in which it is being used.
however, i always thought it meant "sexual", it only seems to be in later years its lapsed into a [dubious]double meaning, and it will teach me to be more careful when posting tired.

if you find my use of the term tranny inappropriate then feel free to report me, because i speak on here as i would "in the real".
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 16-Aug-2018 23:42 Message #4723284
no problem beech, love you too !
OTB  Male  Dorset 17-Aug-2018 01:40 Message #4723287
Thanks for explaining your thought processes, Fosy.

I'm sure no one is going to judge you harshly for posting while tired.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Aug-2018 11:32 Message #4723301
Interesting thoughts on glam rock, I always saw it as very masculine, yes guys had long hair and wore bright colours and make-up, but growing up I never felt it was more liberating for men and the same old rules towards women still applied. For most of us rock stars were great but slightly unreal and any boy who tried to dress like them would of got his head kicked in. Thinking back though at what point did flamouyant clothes become something gay?

PFB, I wonder if you had been born today if you'd have felt the same way? When we were children there were so many fewer opportunites open to women and girls, nobody bats an eyelid at little girls wearing trousers now, but then it was still seen as some kind of parental statement. I too made camps and built fires and had lego. I wasn't allowed to go to brownies or anything like that so I don't know how I would of got on, I didn't like dolls, or not baby dolls, I like my Sindy doll. I always had "sensible" shoes and a haircut was a once a year in summer thing and I only had a couple of changes of clothes, the same ones for years, they were always bought to big for me to "grow into" with the hems let down every year and the sleeves rolled down. I never wanted to be a boy, but I wanted to do the things that I was told I couldn't do because I was a girl, like be Dr Who, I didn't want to be the one who stood about waiting to be caught and screaming for help or doing something stupid, I wanted to be the one who made things happen. I think I must of been born a feminist, I could never accept and not question the things I was told I had to do because I was a girl, I never wanted to marry, I didn't get the whole wedding/bride thing then and I still don't, I didn't want children either, I did change my mind later though and had children. I remember being told by so many people that I should of been a boy because I was tall and wanting to scream at them that I was a girl and what was wrong with a tall girl anyway? I think we forget how different attitudes were then and those attitudes were so confining and defining. I remember meeting a lesbian couple when I was about 10 or 11 all the adults around me were disgusted and made all the usual homophobic noises, I thought it was great you could have all that love and marriage stuff without having yukky boys involved! Obviously that was something I changed my mind about too. I'm sure there were children then who were genuinely transgender maybe more than now, but we also had tomboy role models, I think every Enid Blyton book I ever read had a tomboy in it and she did "do" things.
rosemarysteel  Female  East Anglia 3-Sep-2018 18:00 Message #4724830
Very practical and I Agree. I wanted to be a boy cos they could do things girls weren't allowed to do and no one would tell me why it wasn't safe for girls.
We had female teachers who shared a roof didn't know about lebianism then and if they were I hope they were happy. Both excellent t teachers.
What distresses me is what challenged people go through in their search for inner peace. If you are fey you are fey it doesn't mean you are gay. And if gay not necessarily fey or for that matter homosexual or so I am informed by a friend who happens to be himosexual. Yes the chemical intrusion on life is contraceptive pill is not able to eliminated from our water supply I am told and hormones are added to animal feed etc. We I tefere with nature too much.
God bless you whatever you are.
AndyMacG  Male  the West Midlands 4-Sep-2018 13:50 Message #4724863
I think i'm a bit of a transgender ... i don't much like putting ladies cloths on but i really love taking them off ;-) hee hee

Andy Mac

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