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PM programme item on the heroic struggles of Catherine Coreless

The cruelties performed in the name of Religion.

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Timmee  Male  Hampshire 8-Jun-2018 18:07 Message #4718545
In March 2017, the Mother and Baby Homes Commission of Investigation confirmed the discovery of juvenile human remains in “significant quantities” in the chambers at the former home run by Bon Secours nuns.

The commission was set up in 2015 after historian Catherine Corless published research that revealed death certificates for 796 children at the Tuam home from 1925 to 1961 with no indication of where they had been buried.

Reccommended listen: Item begins about 17.40 on Friday afternoons P.M. programme on Radio 4. (8th June)
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 8-Jun-2018 18:21 Message #4718549
I couldn't. I would find it far too painful to listen too.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 8-Jun-2018 18:37 Message #4718551
I've heard about this already and its horrible, I can understand why the Catholic Church has lost so much support, but there are plety of other Catholic countries that don't seem to have done this, so maybe we should be looking at other factors than just blaming religion?
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 9-Jun-2018 09:06 Message #4718561
There are always other factors
- but religion was the enabler. If you've seen & remember the final confrontation in the Judi Dench film 'Philomena', the old nun's justification for her cruel behaviour was that Philomena and the other girls had sinned and deserved to be punished: That was the poisonous, irrational brain-washing and sexual paranioa of religion.

'Philomena' is a film base on a true story, so we cannot be sure the confrontation was accurately portrayed, but that is a frequent justifcation by religious zealots for cruelty and persecution. You might go Freudian in your analysis and say that individual sexual jealousy and sadism motivated the nun to persecute the girls, but the persecution was widespread in Catholic institutions and religion was the common factor. I think the religious nonsense enabled the nun to codify and justify her hatreds and insecurities and make them 'official' and 'respectable'. A perverted philosphy attracts perverts and psychopaths. In Game Of Thrones, the old nun character would equate to the veiled woman character who persecuted Cersi when she was the captive of the High Sparrow's religious cult. The common factor justifying the same behaviour was religion.

Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!
Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!
Shame! Shame! Shame! Shame!
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 9-Jun-2018 09:08 Message #4718562
ps. Hi Minni - the programme was just a chat with Coreless about her research methods and resistance to her findings.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 9-Jun-2018 11:16 Message #4718563
TImmee I'm not saying that religion played no part in it, I'm saying that I think theres a wider context and if we just focus on the religious angle to the exclusion of the others then we miss out on an opportunity to understand and without understanding then we risk being unable to recognise it when it starts to happen again.

I see this as part of a wider problem of policing womens bodies and sexuality, where are the men who get these women pregnant, why are they not punnished? We still see all this "daughter of Eve" stuff today, its used an an excuse to deny women contraception, abortion, the ability to say no to men and be taken seriously, that consent given once to one man isn't consent in perpetuity to him and others.

I'm intrigued that you bring this subject up and lay the blame entirely on religion and don't want to look at a wider context especially at a time of Metoo, but then you're not that friendly to that movement either from what you've posted on it. To me its all part of the same thing, that for the last two thousand years at least women have had their bodies policed, been told their sex is the cause of all the worlds problems and its still going on. We live in a more secular age now than ever before and yet people are still as confused and condemnatory about womens bodies and a womans right to choose.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 9-Jun-2018 20:40 Message #4718584
I think a lot of the policing women's bodies comes from male manufactured religion. It codifies and makes official that women are inferior and subject to the control of men.

You're right I do dislike several aspects of the MeToo movement.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 10-Jun-2018 11:31 Message #4718598
So do you think if religion disapeared overnight that women would stop having their behaviour policed and we'd all be living in a meritocracy?
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 10-Jun-2018 13:41 Message #4718605
I think it would be a major step to start the process of sexual equality.
So I guess thats a NO to your baldly stated propostion, but a qualified YES in principle.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 10-Jun-2018 18:03 Message #4718611
What about cultures that have been deeply religious, but where women have had equality?

Thats what I mean Timmee, theres more than just religion at play here, theres thousands of years of cultural practice, it could even work in reverse and women could end up more unequal in a non religious world, it would depend on how cultures changed in response.
SQL  Male  Devon 10-Jun-2018 21:08 Message #4718616
To my mind it's all about power.

The nuns used religion as a handy 'mantle' to justify their thuggery towards defenseless unmarried women. Being 'of the faith' they would rarely be challenged over their actions and the Roman Catholic Church (and to a lesser degree other religious orders) would close ranks against any challenges to their clergy/monks/nuns.

For centuries the whole of the general populace in Ireland and to a significant but lesser degree, the rest of the British Isles have been indoctrinated with the 'fact' that anyone in religious orders cannot do evil. All of their actions are justified by 'god' and any sufferer has done evil and deserves to be punished.

If religion had not existed then these thugs would just have found another way to justify their actions - just look at some of these weird cults that have developed in America where a bunch of gullible 'followers' hero-worshiping their leader who tells them to go off and kill people or commit mass suicide.

HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 11-Jun-2018 05:27 Message #4718625
Exactly right SQL.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Jun-2018 10:13 Message #4718637
I agree SQL, look at Soviet Russia, or Maoist China, they banned religion, or did they? I think they just replaced God with "The Party" and the priesthood with party activists. Atrocities were commited that were every bit as bad as those in Ireland done by the Church and I think still are being commited.

I think it would be better to have a discussion on the nature of power and the need some have to exercise power over others, also why are some people happy to be led? Lots of people seem to want to be told what to do, to not have to think and not take any real responsibility for more than the basics.

Look at the way in group identity plays a part, the way we honour war dead, I'm not saying we're wrong to do so, I'm using it as an example, we use them as a social glue to remind us of why we're able to call ourselves part of the tribes and groupings we do. We use the monarchy as part of this and our institutions, they are as much part of the "religion" of being British as any God.

One of the questions I've asked atheists many times is what an antheist world would look like, I've never really got an answer except that it would look exactly like this one with no mention of the divine, how would that be a change for the better?
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 11-Jun-2018 13:49 Message #4718651
It's always more than just religion and I don't say that abolishing religion tomorrow will instantly produce a perfect world. What I am saying is that to improve the world, people have to think and communicate clearly and logically with eachother, and they are not able to do that whilst in the thrall of ancient and magical creeds which have been drummed into them uncritically from birth. I'm saying the abolition of the existing organised supernatural world religions is an essential condition for a more rational & peaceful world.

wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Jun-2018 18:46 Message #4718667
I disagree as to me theres little rational or peaceful about atheists, theres nothing stopping people from talking together now and deciding to work together for the common good, its been done plenty of times before all over the world between different faiths, including the Abrahamic ones. I think its all the other stuff that gets in the way and religion is just an excuse for those who wish to have power over others to try and exercise it.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 15-Jun-2018 21:10 Message #4718820
There are "good" and "bad" people inside and outside religions.

The Bon Secours nuns buried many children's bodies in a septic tank, and lied about it, for instance (in at 52:42) when asked "where are those children?" nuns replied "Oh, they must have gone - their families took them. ... Maybe it was the builders that threw them into the pit".

We know about some of the many cover-ups, including by catholic high officials such as Cardinal Ratzinger, who became pope Benedict XVI, of numerous cases of child sex abuse by clergy.

In case Wonderoushen is still blocking me, can somebody please ask her to unblock me or view this webpage when logged out. While at it she could also read my 3 posts addressed to her on page 8 of her thread "How do you decide which bits of the Bible".
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 15-Jun-2018 21:17 Message #4718821

"I disagree"

Please clarify which sentence(s) do you disagree with in Timmee's last post?

"as to me theres little rational or peaceful about atheists"

Appetites for violence could be a subject for another thread. I think that critical analysis of what one's neighbours say can help to avoid wars. Unfortunately it can be very difficult, for example, in a mass rally or in a group of friends.

It is an aspect of rationality to give examples when requested to back up what you say. In many posts I point out much that is irrational with religion. So can you point out what is irrational about atheists?

Similar to your statement, in another thread Minnie posted "I see little difference in pratice between a proselitysing atheist and a proselitysing god botherer. They probably rate about equal in their judgements, intolerance and irrationality in most cases." Then I posted "I challenge you to quote me and state any thread where I have shown intolerance and irrationality", I repeated that challenge to her and anybody else in a 2nd thread, and as there has still been no response, I now invite her or you or anybody else to give an example of such irrationality or intolerance in anything that I have posted.

"theres nothing stopping people from talking together now"

So do people who strongly believe one religion often talk about their beliefs to people who strongly believe another religion or another sect, or who have stopped believing?
When someone stops believing in certain religions or sects (such as Baha'i or Jehovah's Witness), then it is official policy that the congregation is forbidden to have any contact with them, even within the same family.
When someone leaves Islam, in reliable hadith Muhammed said that they should be executed for apostacy, and that is practiced in many countries.
I take trouble to try to find out and represent fairly what other people believe. I visit churches and talk with their representatives. (I'm still waiting for a reply to my question to a French Jehovah's Witness leader in March!)
What's been stopping you and me from talking together? You!
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 19-Jun-2018 19:44 Message #4719011
Some excellent made points Jeff. I don't want to get involved in any 'blocking' politics so I will decline your requests to pass on specific messages to people. If someone wants not to see or respond to someone else that is their choice.

For my own part, I would just like to point out that atheism is NOT any set of beliefs: it is merely a LACK of belief in the supernatural claims of others (which they have not substantiated to your satisfaction.) Atheism does not involve signing up to any murderous, intolerant creed.

An atheist who murdered for 'Atheism' would be a murderer who happened to be an atheist. I would not consider the Russian or Chinese attempts to wipe out religion as motivated by atheism. I'd consider them as attempts to dominate and 'religious' in character if not name. I think the Nazi's were primarily Lutheran, and Catholic, and some pseudo pagan - not thoughtful atheists.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 20-Jun-2018 11:12 Message #4719026
Yes Timmee I many atheists say that and for many that probably right, but there does seem to be an increasing number fo quite militant atheists who are not prepared to live and let live and always point to the most evangelical and extreme religious creeds as sticks to beat the rest of us with. I'm not sure you can seperate politics and religion, as a Stalinist or a Maoist you were signing up to atheism, religion was one of the "olds" that was so publically persecuted after 1966. You replace god with the party, until we seriously start to examine and take apart the power structures that exist in society you won't change anything except the name.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 20-Jun-2018 18:43 Message #4719040
Exactly as you say Hen - they replaced a god with the party and the leader. Stalinism and Moism closely aped the most controlling and intolerant religions. Their massacres & tortures and obsession with heresy strongly resembled the behaviour of the Catholic Church in medieval Europe. Stanlinists and Moaists displayed the very opposites of a thoughtful LACK of belief, and unwillingness to follow authoritarian directions - which generally characterises an atheist.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 20-Jun-2018 18:55 Message #4719042
Thats not my experience of atheists Timmee, my experience is of intollerance, hectoring and demands for evidence. But then just like those with faith you only ever hear the loud ones.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 21-Jun-2018 11:49 Message #4719083
I continue to address WH in the hope that she will view the webpage when logged out or unblock me. That is of course for her to decide if someone would suggest it, but posting false criticisms without being interested in the response might indicate intolerance, silliness or arrogance at ignoring facts. Even if WH doesn't want to know facts, other readers might be interested.


"there does seem to be an increasing number fo quite militant atheists who are not prepared to live and let live and always point to the most evangelical and extreme religious creeds as sticks to beat the rest of us with. ... like those with faith you only ever hear the loud ones"

I have often quoted from the bible and qur'an and stated the background. (You don't like copy/paste, but that avoids being accused of perverting their messages.) They are mainstream Christianity and Islam. However, many religious people are not aware of some of those quotes and background, or they have not considered them away from a "holy" person.

Which atheist(s) in MSE don't live and let live? Do surveys of atheists compare with the following?

Sometimes I have detailed surveys, where significant proportions of people support what we regard as extremist thoughts or actions. For example, from 2006 includes:-
"The recent homegrown plot in Britain to blow up transatlantic flights will intensify the fear that the country's 1.6 million Muslims are rejecting political tolerance and free speech for a violent, radicalized version of Islam. There is a real concern that British Muslims do pose a threat to that country and its traditional values. So how prevalent are such radical views among British Muslims?
Some answers are provided by the most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain. The results from NOP Research, broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling.
Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year's 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror. ... Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state ... Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who "insult Islam." When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not.".

In other threads I have referred more directly to opinion polls, (often looking up the sources for the exact wording of the questions and numbers of people). For example:-

(a) "IS The Bible True ? Ive just been researching this question" on 10-Jun-12 at 10:33 about the bible being the word of God.

(b) "GOD ,for those that believe Did he make a mistake when he created us" on 30-Jan-13 at 21:24 about Muslims (including in UK) favouring killing apostates.

(c) "Perpetually crying wolf The ruling class's game of fear" on 09-Feb-15 at 22:15 about Muslim support for suicide bombing and the Charlie Hebdo attacks.

(d) "Muslims Like Us BBC I-Player" on 09-Jan-17 at 00:47 about British Muslims opinions of responsibility for 9/11 and whether extremist views exist.

(e) "Muslims Like Us BBC I-Player" on 14-Jan-17 at 17:40 about British M
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 21-Jun-2018 11:52 Message #4719084
(e) "Muslims Like Us BBC I-Player" on 14-Jan-17 at 17:40 about British Muslims sympathy with "7/7" London transport attackers on 07-Jul-05 and other violence.

(f) "Muslims Like Us BBC I-Player" on 15-Jan-17 at 12:30 about the extent of British Muslims' support for terror plots, death for apostates, Shariah law, etc.


"my experience [of atheists] is of intollerance, hectoring and demands for evidence"

You and Minnie and anybody else have not quoted intolerance by me, despite repeated requests.

My method has generally been to question some statements that you and other people have posted, and to point out facts. That isn't hectoring.

Evidence is often very important, to distinguish what one can imagine from what exists, and to show which statements are false such as some by you. However, I often try to explore what people have posted, without asking for evidence.
Whereas I provide (at the time or on request) evidence for the great majority of statements that I make about religion.

Back to Ireland, the Irish Constitution starts:-
"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Eire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ
, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

Isn't it time the start of that was changed?
Cautious1954  Female  Berkshire 21-Jun-2018 12:48 Message #4719096
I think religion is often used as an excuse for conflict when it is not the cause and it is also used as a convenient scapegoat by those looking to point a finger.

there does seem to be an increasing number fo quite militant atheists who are not prepared to live and let live and always point to the most evangelical and extreme religious creeds as sticks to beat the rest of us with. ... like those with faith you only ever hear the loud ones"

"my experience [of atheists] is of intollerance, hectoring and demands for evidence"

If you read through almost any forum discussing the existence or not, of god the swearing and insults will come from the atheists.

When I look online at forums. When I look around me in my everyday life meeting many people who believe in god seem to carry on a peaceful existence of live and let live but the atheists are so often loud and shouting obscenities, insults and making derogatory remarks as they mock those who are not atheists.

This is something I have observed all of my life but the internet has made it more widespread. I’m an atheist myself and have no belief in any god and it often makes me cringe and feel a bit ashamed of the intolerance of fellow atheists.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 21-Jun-2018 14:37 Message #4719101

I too look at various online forums, and see swearing and gross insults from religious people, but not in MSE.

If any atheist has done this in MSE, please quote examples.

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