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Science and Religion

more misunderstandings about creation

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wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Sep-2017 11:38 Message #4701099
According to a yougov poll reported in today Observer, those most likely to believe that all Christians believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and genesis in particular are atheists. This certainly seems to be the case in debates and discussions I've witnessed on here, with atheists insisting that those of faith and Christians in particular MUST believe in genesis as opposed to evolution. American evangelical churches may believe that but not the majority of Christians either here or in the US and the whole thing seems to be a phony war perpetrated by atheists.

I suggest people go off and read the article entitled Would you Adam and Eve It and the articles relating to it.
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester 17-Sep-2017 13:16 Message #4701119
I think you'll find religion is a major factor in past wars not atheism.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Sep-2017 18:33 Message #4701135
What has war got to do with this topic in particular, or did you just read the title and not the body of the OP and comment on that? mancers your post typifies why people don't use this room, because nothing can be discussed only tired old tropes rehersed ad nauseum.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 17-Sep-2017 20:02 Message #4701139
I don't see any reason a belief in God should have to also recognise and book, any Bible about anything written by man.
Most people I know who say they are christians believe that description refers to any person who wants to do good deeds, harm no-one and go about a peaceable life.

I'm on another site where a sometimes riotous thread has reached almost 200 posts in the religious verses atheist arguments but not once does anyone on the thread state their is a god, only that the believe there is a god. By contrast over half the posts mock, insult and are downright rude in their pursuit in the belief of atheism.

It's a funny old world.
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire 17-Sep-2017 21:06 Message #4701145
As you know I am a devout atheist and the one thing I love, in an argument/discussion, is someone who adheres to an Abrahamic religion who doesn't take the Bible literally.

Ask those adherents why they believe in a god and they'll reference their belief to the Bible (or its derivatives) saying things like "It's the word of god", or "God revealed what was written" etc.

You then ask them why they don't take the word/works of god literally and they're either stumped for an answer, or they fluster a response.

As far as I'm concerned if they believe in Genesis (and such) literally then they're in a logical cul-de-sac and up against overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary - and if they don't believe in it literally then they've got some awkward explaining to do to justify their cherry-picking of what they do and don't accept in the bible!

RAACH84  Female  Buckinghamshire 18-Sep-2017 07:25 Message #4701152
Many scientists and knowledgeable people who have studied the subject are often undecided on the issue of whether god exists. Even Charles Darwin known for his theory of evolution is known to have admitted in letters to friends that his beliefs fluctuated.

It's not surprising that those outside any group, religious or otherwise, have blinkered views as to that group.

I dont think anyone during our lifetimes will know for certain whether god created the universe or whether he exists and perhaps proof will never be found either way.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 18-Sep-2017 11:50 Message #4701163
many years ago when i was on the ambulances i was the attendant to a guy on a long journey, and i had been told by another colleague that he was a fascinating person to talk to.

he could speak seven languages fluently, was an advanced engineer but first and foremost an astrophysicist.

i couldnt resist asking him "do you believe in god?"
without a doubt, was his answer.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 19-Sep-2017 11:36 Message #4701218
I think its another case of people who often know little of a subject, but who can't bear the thought of their own ignorance, telling others what they believe without actually listening. It seems more about certain people's need to be right rather than any real understanding that makes these discussions into a sort of ping pong match.
badman  Male  Suffolk 19-Sep-2017 14:22 Message #4701226
I'm not allowed to comment on religion since I had that run in with the nuns.
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester 9-Oct-2017 10:58 Message #4702607
Well that's me told, but I'm still not convinced and refuse to be preached to.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 9-Oct-2017 11:31 Message #4702609
I don't like to be preached to by those believing in religion or atheism. Each to their own and one day there might be proof one way or the other but I doubt it.
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester 9-Oct-2017 20:40 Message #4702644
I always ask myself, why would a God make a vast Universe of Planets mainly uninhabitable, then on the edge of the universe make Earth and then make Man in his image, to live in a garden with a woman called Eve who he made from the man called Adam from one of his ribs, a bit far fetched did you say, try reading the rest of the books.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 10-Oct-2017 07:56 Message #4702654
mancers. Each to their own but perhaps you spend too much time reading religious books. Books are written by man for man and a belief in those books does not translate into a belief in God and vice versa.
Someone once explained that they belived in God and that he had created the universe in much the same way we would create an enourmous ant farm. Once all the facilities were in place you wouldn't be watching every ant or checking on their behaviour. You would leave them to get on with their lives whether good or bad.
Maybe we are God's ants?
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester 10-Oct-2017 09:38 Message #4702658
No Mr Quiet, I had the unfortunate experience of going to Catholic Schools,in the 50s and 60s, religion was their main subject we had to endure at least one lesson a day every school day, I was the kid in the class who at the age of around 10 said " what about evolution Miss " this was dismissed out of hand and never discussed, so no I was force fed religion until I left school then I started reading science fiction which made more sense.

Addie123  Female  Leicestershire 10-Jan-2019 01:39 Message #4733108
If you look closer you might find that people are the major cause of war. Powerful corrupt and greedy people. Religion usually gives those who are enslaved to the ways of this world hope and peace. The evil people twist religions to justify their actions.
Addie123  Female  Leicestershire 10-Jan-2019 01:42 Message #4733109
I think I read somewhere that Darwin said he regretted every theory he had ever had on his deathbed and hoped he would be forgiven. Might be worth a google later bedtime reading lol
TheSarcasticOne  Male  Essex 12-Jan-2019 00:52 Message #4733215
Being agnostic this any easy subject for me.

Prove that God, Goddess, Gods, Goddesses or any combination exists?

Prove that God, Goddess, Gods, Goddesses or any combination does not exist?

Prove that the big bang happened followed by evolution?

Prove that the big bang and evolution did not happen?

I do not think that anyone can prove any of the above, if they PROVE it I will be impressed.

For those that say "Faith" is the answer, that works for all for questions so it also does not work for any of them.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 12-Jan-2019 07:18 Message #4733219
What is seen as proof is merely what is known at a particular time. What is a scientific certainty today is often proven wrong tomorrow.
It’s progress. Having a progressive mind. A yearning for more knowledge otherwise science would stand still.
Just look at all the impossible things which have been accomplished during our lifetimes.

On the subject of God or Gods some believe they have seen undeniable proof which has satisfied them and others have seen those same facts and dismissed them. You still meet many people who deny the holocaust, are convinced we have never landed on the moon.
We all look at facts but decipher them, understand them and believe or disbelieve them because they are only facts to the believers and those who have faith. Tomorrow those facts you have believed all your life may well be dispelled.

Like it or not we all live by faith.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 12-Jan-2019 22:12 Message #4733237
WH: "American evangelical churches may believe that [genesis rather than evolution] but not the majority of Christians either here or in the US and the whole thing seems to be a phony war perpetrated by atheists."

Gallup polls asked U.S. adults (not only Christians) whether they believed:-
(a) Man developed with God guiding;
(b) Man developed but God had no part in the process;
(c) God created man in present form within the last 10,000 years or so.
In 1982 Gallup found (a) 38%, (b) 9%, (c) 44%.
In 2017 Gallup found (a) 38%, (b) 19%, (c) 38%.
Between those years there were similar results.
The gallup website includes "Creationism is still the view that half of Protestants and other Christians (50%) hold, but it is not dominant, with 39% saying humans essentially evolved with God's guidance.
As for those with no religious preference, 57% report a belief that does not involve God, while only 9% are creationists. Not surprisingly, 65% of those who attend church weekly believe in the creationist view, while those who attend church less regularly have less consensus on the question of human origins."

So in the U.S. it isn't "a phony war perpetrated by atheists".

Addie123: "I think I read somewhere that Darwin said he regretted every theory he had ever had on his deathbed and hoped he would be forgiven"

Wikipedia on deathbed conversion says:-
"One famous example is Charles Darwin's deathbed conversion in which it was claimed by Lady Hope that Darwin said: "How I wish I had not expressed my theory of evolution as I have done." He went on to say that he would like her to gather a congregation since he "would like to speak to them of Christ Jesus and His salvation, being in a state where he was eagerly savoring the heavenly anticipation of bliss." Lady Hope's story was printed in the Boston Watchman Examiner. The story spread, and the claims were republished as late as October 1955 in the Reformation Review and in the Monthly Record of the Free Church of Scotland in February 1957.
Lady Hope's story is not supported by Darwin's children. Darwin's son Francis Darwin accused her of lying, saying that "Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply." [19] Darwin's daughter Henrietta Litchfield also called the story a fabrication, saying "I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present during his last illness, or any illness. I believe he never even saw her, but in any case she had no influence over him in any department of thought or belief. He never recanted any of his scientific views, either then or earlier. We think the story of his conversion was fabricated in the U.S.A. The whole story has no foundation whatever.""

In many sleepless nights I have watched/listened to over 100 Youtube videos about what some Christians (e.g. Kent Hovind, Ken Ham) say about evolution, and counterarguments by people such as AronRa and Viced Rhino. Those Christians pervert and twist what evolution is actually about, they ignore huge amounts of evidence, and they are inconsistent.

Some preachers also claim that evolution is a religion, whereas there are many important differences from religion.

I disagree with, but respect, preachers such as Mike Winger, William Lane Craig and Hugh Ross who fairly represent some arguments and address some difficult questions.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 12-Jan-2019 22:17 Message #4733238

Who has the burden of proof?

Have you considered the evidence for the big bang?

Have you considered the evidence for evolution?

Evolution is independent of the big bang. It's also independent of the origin of life (abiogenesis).


I remember many years ago in a church service a youngster saying that he would rather have faith that doesn't change then believe science that does change. I don't think that it's good to ignore new discoveries.

Absolute certainty in science is rare nowadays.

Faith is belief depite evidence to the contrary.

Science is belief supported by evidence.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 12-Jan-2019 23:07 Message #4733240

That makes no sense. If scientific theory is often proven wrong as and when new discoveries are found then the original belief was wrong. The faith in that original theory was unjustified. Now the next scientific theory will only justify faith until that is also proven wrong.

Faith is something we all have in all our daily lives. We might have faith in science or religion. But we have faith in our vehicles braking system, our aircraft not to fall from the skies.

Our faiths, our beliefs are personal to us as individuals which is why we should be trying to indoctrinate our beliefs in others.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 13-Jan-2019 18:36 Message #4733299
WH: "those most likely to believe that all Christians believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and genesis in particular are atheist. ... This certainly seems to be the case in debates and discussions I've witnessed on here, with atheists insisting that those of faith and Christians in particular MUST believe in genesis as opposed to evolution"

The most vocal atheists in MSE include Argonaut (come back!) and myself. Neither of us, not anyone else I read, have ever written or implied that Christians must believe literally in Genesis.
I have read and watched plenty of atheists, and have never seen any who "believe that all Christians believe in a literal interpretation of the bible and genesis in particular". So you raised a phony argument.

I don't know if you've unblocked me yet, but it is yet another falsehood that you've written about my posts.


I should have asked you:-
Have you considered the evidence for and against the big bang?
Have you considered the evidence for and against evolution?


Previous theories are proved wrong when there is more practical or theoretical evidence to do that. Religious faith is not the same as belief based on evidence.

My faith in my vehicle's braking system or in using aircraft is based on evidence. The evidence of laws of mechanics and fluid flow that have been proved to work over many years in many circumstances, the evidence of researchers experimenting with designs of braking systems and aircraft, making mistakes then after many criticial tests being shown to work.

Young Earth creationists often lie that evolution is a religion. But here are some differences.
- Religions preach that there are one or more gods. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions preach holy texts say, and that cannot be changed. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions preach the supernatural or paranormal. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions encourage worship. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions preach that there is an afterlife. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions preach that you must believe authority, not question it. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions don't often admit its errors. Evolution does what they are found.
- Religions rely on books for their evidence. Evolution investigates nature.
- Religions tell people how to behave. Evolution doesn't.
- Religions preach a purpose to the universe. Evolution doesn't.

Similar remarks apply to science in general.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 13-Jan-2019 19:39 Message #4733307
Previous theories are proved wrong when there is more practical or theoretical evidence to do that. Religious faith is not the same as belief based on evidence.

If previous theories are proved wrong then it does not matter if you refer to the “wrong” evidence as a theory, a belief, a fact or an assumption if it’s wrong it’s wrong. The evidence is often wrong and this has been so since the beginning of time.
TheSarcasticOne  Male  Essex 14-Jan-2019 09:53 Message #4733343
Jeff, proof or evidence is is not available for either.

There is also an issue with how "Man" as a race interprets things and how "Men" as a sex have done the same.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 15-Jan-2019 12:01 Message #4733387
Absolute proof is never possible. I asked about evidence.

The great majority of atheists (including me) don't claim to prove that God doesn't exist. But there is much evidence that their holy texts and their arguments are faulty. Most religious people don't want to consider such evidence, and some people even object to considering certain questions.

I suspect that every day you rely on evidence of things existing and happening, without needing absolute proof. Evidence can be misleading - for example, your chair seems to be solid whereas deeper study shows that it is mostly empty space. But we act according evidence rather than requiring absolute proof.

A common statement by people against evolution is that people weren't there to see it happening. But every day criminals are convicted (I suspect mostly correctly) on forensic evidence by scientists who weren't there to see the crime happening. There might be other explanations for a crime, such as someone else locally having the same DNA and fingerprints, or an alien from the future coming through a wall, but we discount those.
Also some evolution can be seen happening, e.g. viruses becoming resistant to antibiotics, insects becoming resistant to insecticides, moths changing colour.

I'm no expert in the subject, but from evidence of reading and viewing, I believe that there is a mountain of evidence from millions of experts indicating that the theory of evolution is true. This can be seen in, for example:-
- Comparative anatomy - e.g. the bone structures, and strange layout of organs of current animals and fossils;
- Molecular biology - e.g. DNA and RNA;
- Biogeography - e.g. why certain organisms are only in certain places;
- Within a few years - (see previous paragraph);
- Embryology - how animals develop before birth;
- Fossils - 250,000 species have been identified by fossils;
- The layers of rocks in which types of fossils are found;
- Transitional fossils - which creations say don't exist, ignoring the many that do exist;
- And so on.

There are arguments against evolution. I raised 10 of them (which I disagree with) in thread "Evolution Questions and Answers" on 10-Aug-13 at 19:00.

I watch plenty of videos by religious creationists who distort the theory of evolution. Many of them believe literally in the global flood and Noah's Ark about 4,400 years ago, in which 2 (or 7?) of every "kind" of animal was looked after for a year by 8 people. (Islam is similar but not identical.) (I won't go here into the many reasons against that,) More than a million species of animals have been catalogued, and there are many more.
Creationists say that all this variety has formed in the last 4,400 years, but not in the last 600 or so million years.

There is also evidence for the Big Bang. But religious peeople don't argue so much about that, (except whether it happened about 6,000 years ago), because they say that God caused it.

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