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New Data

from experts about lockdown

Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
26-Apr-2020 19:17 Message #4778066
I respect the WHO but medical evidence might give some more helpful information but no evidence doesn't necessarily mean something does or doesn't exist. That's why the illness ME gets little support, because there is no concrete evidence why people get it and no test to diagnose it, yet 250,000 people in UK have symptoms of it.

You can also have bad evidence where something is proved because the evidence has been badly checked out.

So, all because those recovered from the virus might not be fully protected, there is also no evidence to say they are not. Then there is a lot of variables even they are not protected. 1. There might be a twin virus but not identical but a relative. 2. They might get some protection but a weaker version because they have some antibodies. 3. The second infection might appear with different symptoms rather like Chicken Pox revisited is Shingles but both are the viral infection last lingers in the body to be reignited as herpes zoster.
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
26-Apr-2020 21:49 Message #4778087
I respect the WHO but medical evidence might give some more helpful information but no evidence doesn't necessarily mean something does or doesn't exist. That's why the illness ME gets little support, because there is no concrete evidence why people get it and no test to diagnose it, yet 250,000 people in UK have symptoms of it.

I couldn't agree more. Nobody including scientists and medical experts have all the answers and everyone is capable of getting it wrong. That doesn't stop some people using their gift of hindsight to vilify the mistakes of others.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
26-Apr-2020 22:31 Message #4778088
Not enough is known about this virus. So, if the WHO say it isn't known if immunity is guaranteed, it's good enough for me. Don't act on what you don't know, as they say.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
27-Apr-2020 10:01 Message #4778119
Sure it wasn't an old image, Gilpin?
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
27-Apr-2020 10:43 Message #4778131
No it was not an old image. You can still get emergency dental care, but all routine care has been stopped.

There are also UDCs being set up (Urgent Dental Care hubs) in local areas, which was in the process of being set up the 2nd week in April.

Some hospitals are also offering emergency walk in dental care. However the usual lack of appropriate PPE is causing problems.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
27-Apr-2020 10:49 Message #4778133
The gift if hindsight to vilify the mistakes of others?

That is different to evidence.

Some people have more foresight i.e before the event, have an idea of what needs to be done.
So the Government in 2016, had the Exercise Cygmus to find out exactly that ...

Exercise Cygnus
Exercise Cygnus was a simulation exercise carried out by NHS England in October 2016 to estimate the impact of a hypothetical H2N2 influenza pandemic on the United Kingdom. The exercise showed that the pandemic would cause the country's health system to collapse from a lack of resources, with Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer at the time, stating that a lack of medical ventilators and the logistics of disposal of dead bodies were serious problems. As of April 2020, the full results of the exercise remain classified.


So is it not justified to question them on why no action was taken?
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
27-Apr-2020 10:57 Message #4778136
Well of course you could argue that our health system hasn't collapsed (at least not yet) and I've not heard of problems with the disposal of bodies.
The ventilator arguments seemed to have magically gone away and I've not heard much about PPE lately - the media seem bored with that and have moved on to Cummins and when the lockdown ends.
When you hear that the Nightingale hospitals are either not being used at all or are dealing with tiny numbers of patients it makes you wonder...
Male
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
27-Apr-2020 11:04 Message #4778138
The major issue with Nightingale hospitals seems to be lack of staffing - eg when patients are referred to one they ask for a staff member to accompany that patient and of course the mainstream hospitals have been chronically short of staff for years.
Male
Wandering4fun  Male  North Yorkshire
27-Apr-2020 11:09 Message #4778140
All good points Hierophant. We have done well so far and the instructions to stay indoors and wash hands regularly and after touching anything have been spot on.
Some people do have foresight JustLyn which is educated guesswork which usually means if hindsight proves you right you get a pat on the back and if hindsight proves you wrong you are vilified.
Every leader in the world and all the medical scientists around the world have only had guesswork and hindsight so it's no surprise that every country has struggled to find the best way to tackle the virus.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
27-Apr-2020 11:22 Message #4778142
"The gift if hindsight to vilify the mistakes of others?

That is different to evidence.

Some people have more foresight i.e before the event, have an idea of what needs to be done.
So the Government in 2016, had the Exercise Cygmus to find out exactly that ...

Exercise Cygnus
Exercise Cygnus was a simulation exercise carried out by NHS England in October 2016 to estimate the impact of a hypothetical H2N2 influenza pandemic on the United Kingdom. The exercise showed that the pandemic would cause the country's health system to collapse from a lack of resources, with Sally Davies, the Chief Medical Officer at the time, stating that a lack of medical ventilators and the logistics of disposal of dead bodies were serious problems. As of April 2020, the full results of the exercise remain classified.


So is it not justified to question them on why no action was taken?"

……………………………………………….

Agree 100% with your post.

Hindsight … one of those obscure excuses. If they were aware enough or half enough, hindsight would not be necessary.

Exercise Cygnus shows they should have been aware and was a gift to prepare, in the case of any emergency. They should have called it Exercise Cygnus for Economic growth, that would have caught their attention.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
27-Apr-2020 11:27 Message #4778144
The staffing issue may be correct but presumably if the NHS was in meltdown staff would be found from somewhere to man the pumps.
We don't hear anymore about the retired medical staff brought in to help either, but when you see videos of nurses in large parts of hospitals with nothing to do all day you start to understand why.
The latest row in the media is the death toll and how it's much higher than the govt are claiming, strangely these people are quite happy to doubt our figures yet take as gospel the figures from every other country in the world (well apart from the USA of course because it's Trump).
It's so difficult to find the truth, but it's out there somewhere....
Male
ToBeAdvised  Male  Essex
27-Apr-2020 11:39 Message #4778146
Yes but like Mulder's attempts, even with Scully's occasional assistance/hindrance, that illusive truth always just seems to be out of reach.!
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
27-Apr-2020 11:45 Message #4778149
I did read they can't get enough nurses to staff the London Nightingale. When I looked to return to nursing whilst I was still registered, and without forking out £100s to to maintain my registration on a pension, the only option was to move to London and as a carer to my adult children with disabilities, it wouldn't work for me.

When Hierophant mentioned in anther thread that nurses were playing games and riding on equipment I replied then that you need a surplus to take up the slack in any job where you have variable inflow. Gone are the days when I had to look busy and clean plastic chairs twelve times on one shift just to not look idle. In those days I was also reprimanded for not being busy when I was helping an old lady to do her knitting, and even worse be seen taking them out in the sunshine.

I worked on a busy heart surgery ward and we were probably run off our feet 95% of the time but if anyone saw us hanging about during the 5% they probably judged on that bit.

I also posted part of a message from my first ex husband who I was with from age 17 to 21. He retired from the Air Force and helps his younger brother who manages a funeral business chain.

This is what he said last week:
Its frightening to see how quickly the numbers (bodies) are growing, and how quickly all the new temporary fridges fill with the dead....looking like the emergency standby morgue which was not expected to be used might be opening any day now...bodies are being sent from local hospital to Wales and Lancaster at the moment.
Female
Andromeda  Female  Berkshire
27-Apr-2020 11:58 Message #4778151
There were 138,916 deaths registered in the first 12 weeks of the year. That’s slightly above 2019 and 2016 but quite a bit below 2015, 2017 and 2018.

I wonder how it will compare by the year's end.

Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
27-Apr-2020 12:08 Message #4778154
Some people do have foresight JustLyn which is educated guesswork which usually means if hindsight proves you right you get a pat on the back and if hindsight proves you wrong you are vilified.

Yes, true, but the educated bit would be why the Exercise Cygmet was done and the government continued to reduce and discourage the nursing and medical workforce as well as discouraging a lot of the non British help back to their home countries.

Many GPs chose to retire early because of incessant changes they could not keep up with. It was well known that many nurses were coming up to retirement, one third in primary care, yet nothing was done to encourage them / me to stay. They imposed student fees on student nurses even though they have to work to get experience and couldn't get a support job like other students, and they removed the nurse bursary which has been reinstated far too late, and at a lower level.

The hindsight / foresight thing, along with the Cygmet thing, reduction of police since 2009 seems to have not used education in their forward guessing.
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon
27-Apr-2020 12:16 Message #4778158
Wandering4fun Male North Yorkshire
27-Apr-2020 11:09 new Message #4778140
All good points Hierophant. We have done well so far and the instructions to stay indoors and wash hands regularly and after touching anything have been spot on.
Some people do have foresight JustLyn which is educated guesswork which usually means if hindsight proves you right you get a pat on the back and if hindsight proves you wrong you are vilified.
Every leader in the world and all the medical scientists around the world have only had guesswork and hindsight so it's no surprise that every country has struggled to find the best way to tackle the virus.


Almost everything we read regarding the virus is with hindsight.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
27-Apr-2020 12:25 Message #4778160
"The hindsight / foresight thing, along with the Cygmet thing, reduction of police since 2009 seems to have not used education in their forward guessing."

You keep banging on about this Lyn, but the NHS has coped without meltdown, at least from what I've seen.
Not that I'm desperate to see them, but I was expecting images of mass burials as the system became overwhelmed, but that doesn't appear to have happened either. I don't buy a newspaper but I'm sure the media would be all over such a story.

It's certainly not over yet and it could still all go massively wrong, but I think we have done quite well thus far....
Male
tumbled  Male  Gloucestershire
27-Apr-2020 12:53 Message #4778162
The burials is something that doesn't seem to add up......Are there thousands more than usual happening?

In some of my posts, I keep mentioning flu...and the lack of news about flu deaths....and things like 'are the coronavirus deaths happening instead of the usual flu deaths?'

The answers don't seem easily available....People have their own opinions on it, but the whole thing seems very strange......

Something to get the whole world to lockdown.....Who'd have thought that was possible?....

Also regards deaths and funerals etc.....I've just seen this from history com website

As a terrifyingly lethal influenza virus swept across the globe between 1918 and 1920, history’s deadliest pandemic claimed the lives of approximately 50 million people worldwide and 675,000 in the United States. Nearly 200,000 Americans died from the “Spanish Flu” in October 1918 alone, making it the deadliest month in the country’s history.

With cremation an uncommon practice at the time, the sheer number of bodies overwhelmed the capacity of undertakers, gravediggers and casket makers to keep pace with the arduous task of burying the dead. At the same time, a prohibition on public gatherings that included funerals and wakes compounded the pain of many grief-stricken families who could not properly mourn the loss of their loved ones.

The mass mortality led to macabre scenes. Red Cross nurses in Baltimore reported instances of visiting flu-ravaged homes to discover sick patients in bed beside dead bodies. In other cases, corpses were covered in ice and shoved into bedroom corners where they festered for days.

Inundated undertakers stacked caskets in funeral home hallways and even in their living quarters. In New Haven, Connecticut, six-year-old John Delano and his friends played outside of a mortuary, scaling a mountain of caskets piled on a sidewalk, unaware of the contents inside. “We thought—boy, this is great. It’s like climbing the pyramids,” he recalled.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
27-Apr-2020 18:57 Message #4778181
A report on the 6pm news earlier and in Panorama I think, to be shown later this evening has shown that the government did nothing to top up stocks of PPE that a major report a year or two ago said was needed in case of a pandemic, so no gowns were ordered, no face shields, no high quality masks. Gloves are counted individually not in pairs which is of course how they're used, things like paper towels and disenfectant are counted as PPE, so when they say that 1m items of PPE have been sent out they mean 500k pairs of gloves, that makes it look a lot more like like creative accounting than what they'd like us to believe. I've seen loads of reporting on lack of PPE ever sinse this whole thing started and its a continuing problem. Ventilators have been found to not be as helpful with CV19 as CPAP, so only those who really can't breathe unaided are put on them.


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