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Male
Blackjack  Male  South Yorkshire
4-Jan-2021 22:52 Message #4802471
In England and Wales in 2000 more than 56,000 people died from flu or pneumonia not including Scotland or Northern Ireland.

The World Health Organisation (WHO) data on deaths worldwide due to influenza. deaths in England attributed to the ’flu 2014-2020 have varied between 11,875 and 28,330 per winter season

In the winter of 2014/2015, England on its own lost 28,330 people due to the ’flu, to say nothing of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Neither the Government nor the media batted an eyelid. All businesses and shops remained open, as did schools, restaurants, charities, churches, parks, and everywhere else.

Whatever year, regardless of abnormally high death toll …Nothing was ever done, as the. The cuts to the NHS continued, Flights continued as normal. No holidays, weddings, or concerts were cancelled. The plans for the General Election, the Olympic Games, the 2016 EU Referendum, and even the Eurovision song contest continued to stay on track.

The police were not employing drones to keep us all under effective house arrest. Operations for serious conditions other than the ’flu were not being cancelled. Elderly and sick people could continue to see their doctors. And the economy was not being trashed for the younger generation.

In other words, life went on, completely unchanged. 28,330 people died of the ’flu in England alone. 89% of these people were pensioners. But life went on.

The flu kills. Massive job losses kill. Poverty and despair kill. Lack of exercise kills. Over-eating through boredom kills. Total loss of quality of life kills.

What I have been trying to suggest that WHY the sudden necessity from March 2010 for our government to suddenly be concerned about the health of its people when they gave only lip service to it for the previous 19 years? Why oh Why the sudden concern for the welfare of ordinary people?

The Office of National Statistics says between January and August 2020 in England and Wales

There were just 394 deaths due to flu.

What might the evidence so far suggest to you?


One more question: Can you trust our caring government’s backing for an instantaneously created vaccine that has never been tested on humans or any animals before its certification and has been manufactured purely for the concern of ordinary people????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
4-Jan-2021 22:58 Message #4802474
What might the evidence so far suggest to you?

That's a simple one. The evidence suggests that no expert, no politician, no countries government has all the answers but I do believe that most are fighting tooth and nail to prevent the spread of this killer virus.
Most countries and certainly those similar to ourselves such as Spain, Italy and France are taking similar actions to the uk and are similarly unsuccessful in their endeavours.

The vaccine has obviously been produced with the assistance with the worlds greatest experts and only adapted for this new virus so it's no surprise that several countries have managed to get it to the patients quickly .

I am enthusiastic in wanting the vaccination and gaining the extra protection.
Male
SQL  Male  Devon
5-Jan-2021 10:27 Message #4802491
One more question: Can ... created vaccine that has never been tested on humans or any animals before its certification and has been manufactured purely for the concern of ordinary people?

It had been tested extensively before certification. The last 8 words are equally wrong.

COVID19 will eventually be relegated to another mainly winter season respiratory disease. Then - at some date in the future - Virus X will appear and there will be another pandemic that may prove to be even more deadly. Planet earth can easily support a population of 100 million Homo Sapiens, the current population is unsustainable thus you could say Virus X is just evolution.

SQL
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
5-Jan-2021 11:12 Message #4802493
Hi Blackjack,

I haven't checked your figures, but on reading your post the thing that popped into my mind was if the influenza vaccine would impact reduction of deaths over the term you mentioned.

From my old job as a nurse in general practice I have a few subjective memories of the vaccination changes from 1999 to retirement in 2020 where the flu complications of pneumonia were addressed with more consistent and planned pneumonia prevention vaccinations to 23 strains out of around 122. These are bacterial not viral, and vaccinations reduced to once in a lifetime for most people after 2001 for those at higher risk due to age over 65 or other health conditions.

This site has interesting history on the development of the flu vaccine.
https://weather.com/health/cold-flu/news/2019-12-23-a-brief-history-of-the-flu-vaccine

"...early flu vaccine only protected against one of the three flu types, Influenza A. There are three types of flu — Influenza A, B and C — and each one has its own viral strain that replicates and changes independently of the others every season. Influenza A and B are the most common. A vaccine against Influenza A did nothing to protect people from Influenza B or C. It wasn’t until 1942 that the first bivalent vaccine was developed, meaning it worked for both an Influenza type A and type B strain."

It was 1978 for the first vaccine to simultaneously impact 3 strains (2 of Type A, and 1 of Type B), and these vaccines needed to be predicted each year as viral shift and mutations are a normal occurrence.

Since 1999, when I first started training in giving vaccines, there has been constant progression and efficacy especially in the past 5 years or so, where I think even the non Covid vaccine eventually protected against 5 types of flu, and different types of vaccines were targeted at different age groups, one being for over 65's, one being for younger with health problems, and the 2's to 9's being routinely offered the nasal drops.

So this would explain why Internationally, in developed countries, why deaths to non Covid flu's have massively reduced, but Covid19 has escalated flu deaths and new complications to old unvaccinated flu figures.

Also, it is likely that in modern medicine, and the presence of the NHS, or even private health insurance services in U.S. show the problems up more because people expect treatment, so beds are filled, whereas in pre 1945 days people just filled the graveyards, no TV promoting what is going on all over the World, out of sight out of mind for many?

So the evidence to me, is you need more components in your analysis as to how deaths to old known strains are fewer, and not just look at the numbers.

As a socialist.. well I voted for Corbyn, even the most evil and greedy leaders should have the intelligence to know there is no money in causing disease and illness and prevention is cheaper. But I guess some are more interested in short term gain rather than the long view, i.e. how much money is in the pot for the economic graphs that looks good to those with dollar signs in the pupils of their eyes.
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon
5-Jan-2021 11:28 Message #4802496
SQL Male Devon
5-Jan-2021 10:27 new Message #4802491
One more question: Can ... created vaccine that has never been tested on humans or any animals before its certification and has been manufactured purely for the concern of ordinary people?

It had been tested extensively before certification. The last 8 words are equally wrong.

COVID19 will eventually be relegated to another mainly winter season respiratory disease. Then - at some date in the future - Virus X will appear and there will be another pandemic that may prove to be even more deadly. Planet earth can easily support a population of 100 million Homo Sapiens, the current population is unsustainable thus you could say Virus X is just evolution.

SQL


I'm amazed anyone honestly believes that the vaccine hasn't been extensively tested. They tell these lies to suit their own agenda.
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon
5-Jan-2021 11:28 Message #4802497
SQL Male Devon
5-Jan-2021 10:27 new Message #4802491
One more question: Can ... created vaccine that has never been tested on humans or any animals before its certification and has been manufactured purely for the concern of ordinary people?

It had been tested extensively before certification. The last 8 words are equally wrong.

COVID19 will eventually be relegated to another mainly winter season respiratory disease. Then - at some date in the future - Virus X will appear and there will be another pandemic that may prove to be even more deadly. Planet earth can easily support a population of 100 million Homo Sapiens, the current population is unsustainable thus you could say Virus X is just evolution.

SQL


I'm amazed anyone honestly believes that the vaccine hasn't been extensively tested. They tell these lies to suit their own agenda.
Male
Blackjack  Male  South Yorkshire
6-Jan-2021 01:17 Message #4802542
I am happy to take a vaccine, have had several over my life, and they have saved millions. My problem is with corporate instant vaccines, where the pharmaceutical industry’s sole motivation is profit, identical structure as the tobacco industry, the opioid scandal. 2020 vaccine profits expected - $61 Billion. Pfizer’s CEO sold 62% of his stock on the day of the vaccine announcement. Demonstrating long term faith?

Flue deaths: Figures from the Ministry of Truth, The Office of National Statistics says between January and August 2020 in England and Wales ONLY there were just 394 deaths due to flu. The World Health Organisation (WHO) data on deaths in Just England attributed to the ’flu 2014-2020 have varied between 11,875 and 28,330 per winter season, so 394 is a statistical anomaly. It questions death certification.

Finding a vaccine involves scientists and medical experts from around the world, and it usually requires 10 to 15 years of research before the vaccine is made available to the general public. The new Pfizer-BioNTech gene edited mRNA vaccines are being rushed out after less than 90 days. No vaccine application has ever before been approved in such a shot time. Vaccine makers all have legal indemnity, meaning they can’t be sued if people die or are maimed from the new vaccine. “NHS (National Health Service) staff providing the vaccine, are also protected,” the Independent” reported.

Both US and EU authorities, waived the standard animal tests using ferrets or mice and have gone straight to humans. Human tests began in late July and early August. Three months is unheard of for testing a new vaccine. Several years is the norm, caution has been thrown to the wind. The well-established Precautionary Principle–if in serious doubt, don’t– is being ignored. The government has refused to release to The BMJ the financial interest forms signed by SAGE members,

The experimental technology is based on new gene manipulation, gene editing, using CRISPR technology, which breaks and splices human genes. This has never been used on humans. Because of unprecedented the fast track, by definition it’s experimental. Moderna, uses the same technology, “three of the 15 human experimental subjects in the high dose group suffered serious and medically significant symptoms. Moderna, however, concluded that the vaccine was “generally safe and well tolerated,” Once implanted, the technology spreads throughout the body. Scientists do not know how this affects our DNA

The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine was authorised by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency under Section 174 of the Human Medicine Regulations 2012 - Information for UK Healthcare Professionals” allow the licensing authority to temporarily authorise the supply of an unlicensed product in response to certain public health threats, including the suspected spread of pathogens. The proposed change would allow conditions to be attached “to ensure product safety, quality, and efficacy” In a section called “Fertility, pregnancy and lactation,” the guide says there is “no or limited data” on the vaccine. The guide states - section 4.6 “Animal reproductive toxicity studies have not been completed. COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine BNT162b2 is not recommended during pregnancy,” “In addition, women of childbearing age should be advised to avoid pregnancy for at least 2 months after their second dose,”

The consultation document said that if there were a “compelling case, on public health grounds, for using a vaccine before it is given a product licence, given the nature of the threat we face, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation may take the very unusual step of advising the UK government to use a tested, unlicensed vaccine against covid-19, and we need to make sure that the right legislative measures are in place to deal with that scenario.”



On August 19, 1947, the judges of the American military tribunal, presented ten basic princip
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
6-Jan-2021 19:32 Message #4802615
Blackjack,

Since drug companies aren't charities, I've no problem them making a profit, as hopefully, profit is partly reinvested into ew treatments and research. As with the opioid scandal, that was the lies that were pedalled with drugs that caused addiction to enhance the market, as in cigarettes. But we don't get addicted to vaccines, and generally, there isn't a returning market in the sense the same people coming back for more.

I do retain some cynicism and caution, but without checking, I read the Oxford vaccine is only £3 per shot, and to make it cheaper for huge populations such as in India, the vaccine is being produced in India.

I don't have a problem with short cuts in design or using humans. I volunteered to be one as I disagree with using animals, and other animals do not necessarily respond in the same way once such drugs or vaccine get used in humans. Also, even though the Covid vaccine is kind of new technology, the designers haven't had to start from the starting line, having much experience in production of other vaccines for around a century. In addition, the vaccine being produced so quickly is due to the urgency, funds and cooperation between agencies, which doesn't normally happen. In spite of so many people claiming it is all a hoax, one example is my daughter having had M.E. since 2001, bottom of the barrel for research internationally, and suddenly when millions are getting the same symptoms with "long covid", millions are being pumped in to find cures and treatments for people who previously were ignored and fobbed off as malingerers.

It is normal practice for new drugs and vaccines to not be authorised for groups not normally included in the initial trials, but it doesn't mean they are not safe, it just means it isn't considered advisable to include elderly or pregnant women in trials, but they can make a calculated pretty accurate guess from past experience that such drugs or vaccines do not harm but might not be as effective.

This happened to pertussis, or whooping cough, only available with a combined vaccine with tetanus and polio, not suitable for pregnant women until it was discovered that giving the vaccine to pregnant women massively reduced deaths of babies in the first few months of life due to whooping cough, suddenly we start giving it.
It's also common to give unlicensed vaccines and drugs, even to children, not because they are unsafe but because some drugs and vaccines are later found helpful to other groups of patients.
Male
VingtEtUn  Male  central London
6-Jan-2021 20:49 Message #4802620
Very good JustLyn.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
7-Jan-2021 19:00 Message #4802711
I noticed that about Long Covid too Lyn, I hope it benefits people like your daughter and people like me with fibromyalgia, to long have people been written off and allowed to languish because of such a mixed bag of symptoms don't fit with any established medical discipline or doctors just can't be bothered.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
7-Jan-2021 20:36 Message #4802721
I hope so too WH, but pity so many are having to suffer now. Had M.E. been paid more attention to in the first place, maybe they would be someway to helping those with long Covid now.
Male
Kimjongun  Male  South Yorkshire
10-Jan-2021 01:33 Message #4802951
What are you hinting at Black Jack.
Are you saying Flu not killing people anymore?
Of course it is, so the figures must be wrong?
Maybe the test for Flu is not accurate?
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
10-Jan-2021 08:27 Message #4802952
Flu numbers are down by around 97% worldwide according to the figures. Northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere, it doesn't matter, seasonal flu has almost disappeared.
It can't be mask wearing and social distancing that's done it, respiratory viruses such as flu and covid spread in exactly the same way, so logically it's not going stop one stone dead whilst the other spreads like wildfire.
Of course, that logic won't make any difference and we'll probably be forced to wear masks and socially distance every winter because our leaders think it has eradicated flu.
Maybe flu infections are being recorded as covid, whether by accident or design.
Maybe covid itself as the more dominant virus has supressed flu.
I don't think mankind can claim the credit for (temporarily) eradicating something that regularly kills thousands every year even with a credible vaccine...
Male
tumbled  Male  Gloucestershire
10-Jan-2021 08:52 Message #4802953
Once Covid 'disappears', we can just about guarantee that flu will suddenly 'reappear'....in my opinion....

As has been said, Covid is probably 'masking' the flu cases, being the more dominant....

It's ridiculous to even think that we've got rid of flu after all these hundreds of years.....just like that.....

With regards to wearing masks.....I believe that quite a lot of people will carry on wearing them in future, regardless of the rules......Perhaps a bit of a stigma has been lifted........There was a time before all this craziness, when wearing masks was often regarded as 'dingbat crazy'.....Think Michael Jackson, for instance.....and the comments he used to get.....Ok, he also was 'dingbat crazy' in other ways as well.....but the masks thing certainly fuelled the opinions......

Now though.....It's become more normal.......I expect it'll even become fashionable and trendy after all this Covid rubbish is over......There'll be 'Mask wearer of the year' awards....

Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
10-Jan-2021 09:08 Message #4802954
If people want to wear masks 24 hours per day, that's fine by me, I just don't want it to be mandatory for all of us.
They're already trendy with designer masks costing £70 available to buy if you're of the mind.
I have a friend in Asia who wears a mask habitually and they can't understand my aversion, but there you go.
Who'd have thought a year ago we would see normally sane people walking around tesco with plastic face shields on and not piss ourselves laughing?...
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
10-Jan-2021 09:18 Message #4802956
Hierophant,

I kind of get your logic, but there's a few holes in your deductions.

Any respiratory viral illness would reduce when the world is taking such precautions, even Covid-19, as it would have spread much faster still, if most of the populations had done nothing. The point is attempting to keep the dead confined to places where they don't rot until they can be disposed of, and th sick in a bed with a ventilator and staff to care for them if they need it. Even if there is some sense in herd immunity, we still have to try to control so our systems can cope. Even though my ex didn't die of Covid, they haven't been able to do his post mortem until 5 weeks after he died, and couldn't deal with the body at the crematorium until 6 weeks after that. Though we did get a call they had been able to bring it forward.

Covid and other flu's do spread in a similar way, i.e. aerosol transmission and some surface contact, but one analogy that explains it is other previous common flu's might be your average Skoda car, but Covid 19 is a Porche with a racy engine so the latter is much quicker off the mark.
I could also add a further variation analogy as why such flu's are not comparable, as the Skoda has a plank of wood sticking out of a car window, and the fool driving the Porche has a javelin with a poisoned point on it.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire
10-Jan-2021 09:56 Message #4802962
Blackjack - its food for thought, and promotes a lot of thinkig and soul searching.

As regards the mask, I dont see it as problem . I have worn one during peak hayfever season, and in winter cold air, for 25 years, as I am asthmatic and it has helped me no end.

I do wonder how the moslem ladies feel about it, does their hijab alone help them, or do they wear a mask as well. I havent seen any moslem ladies at all recently, but I havent been out too much in the last year.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
11-Jan-2021 11:00 Message #4802998
Sorry Lyn but I don't understand your analogy at all.
A virus enters the body via droplets/mist expelled by an infected person that you either inhale directly or that fall onto a surface you then touch and you introduce the virus into your own body by touching your mouth, eyes or nose.
Hence the washing hands thing being so important.
Of course, how much viral load you receive, how aggressive the particular virus is and your state of health will determine what happens next.

I know there has been talk of covid droplets flying further, attaching to pollen spores and drifting miles, living longer, being smaller and therefore penetrating masks easier than the flu virus etc etc.
I don't see how any of that can be true because it's not the virus that determines the size of the droplets - when we sneeze or cough the droplets we expel vary in size.
The fact that there has been no stipulation of what type/brand/mesh size of mask we must wear clearly shows that it's a sticking plaster approach at best...
Male
Templar2013  Male  South East London
11-Jan-2021 11:54 Message #4803008
The simple measures of washing hands, wearing a mask and keeping spaced are the ones which will be the most effective but only if the public stick to the regulations.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
11-Jan-2021 12:14 Message #4803011
Well 10 months of having the prospect of a horrible death drummed into us, daily death figures showing us how close death is, scary stories of normally healthy people succumbing to this horrible disease, is it any wonder people are starting to switch off?
I do wonder if they've over egged the pudding and people are now numbed to the apparent horror.

Rather like in the blitz when ordinary people were faced with the reality they might not be here tomorrow and examples of death were all around - "Mrs Jackson from number 24 was blown to bits last night and I was only chatting to her in the bakers yesterday morning!"
What happened during that scary time?......people started to take the view that if they were going to die, they weren't going to die curled up in a whimpering ball under the bedclothes. I suspect something similar is happening now.

I think more and more people have become immune to it all, the daily death figures barely raise an eyebrow now - the govt are losing the people.....
Male
tumbled  Male  Gloucestershire
11-Jan-2021 12:35 Message #4803013
I kind of agree Hiero.....

It seems that all sorts of things are going on in peoples minds.....They see a small percentage of people getting covid.....even though the figures are large....it's still only a small percent.....Then a small percent of those die.......There's more chance of living than there is of dying....More chance by far......

They see their own lives getting less and less, with or without Covid........They see time running out....They're only here once....Make the most of it etc etc.....

They then venture out......To live for now.....Sod the future.....Life is for living now etc....

Without a doubt.....with or without Covid......This is the last year of some of our lives......This is the last month for some......the last week......the last day......the last few minutes.......I may not even finish typing this......
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
11-Jan-2021 12:36 Message #4803015
Hiero,

Yes, it is a sticking plaster. It's all we can do, as even the best mask is only as good as how people wear it and as I say many times, it's about reduction not obliteration.

I can't say I'm savvy to the extent you would need to explain at a biological level, but we can take those trained at that level to know that the mutation is spreader faster than the previous one. I'm sure there's not just one reason, but the additional spreading capacity combined with more people reducing precautions so the lines will be blurred.

Sorry you didn't get my analogy, but you kind of did because you replied with how the speed, flying further, living longer etc fits what I was trying to say. It just is, one of things, like Stephen Hawkings, we just trusted he knew what he was talking about.

One expert states it's additional stickiness.
https://abc7news.com/new-strain-of-coronavirus-san-diego-mutation-variant-meaning/9215949/

Here's another explanation from Health.com
https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/why-are-new-strains-of-covid-more-contagious

The B.1.1.7 strain may enter host cells more easily, causing infection
Occasionally, however, a mutation emerges that gives the new virus an advantage over the original version—such as the ability to escape detection, greater infectivity, or less susceptibility to vaccine, Dr. Narashimhan explains. B.1.1.7 falls into that category. This variant has 17 mutations in its genome, some of which are in the Spike protein, which is what the virus uses to bind to receptors in human cells.

A mutation to the spike protein may theoretically allow the new strain to more easily enter host cells, thereby triggering infection. "Some estimates have calculated an approximately 50% increase in infection," Dr. Bailey explains. "in other words, 15 new infections from the mutated strain versus 10 from the current COVID-19 strain."

One such mutation is N501Y, which is in the receptor binding domain (RBD) of the Spike protein of the virus. Scientists believe that this mutation may cause it to bind more tightly to the human angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. Other changes in the Spike protein may allow this mutation to evade detection by certain PCR (polymerase chain reaction) methods, Dr. Narashimhan adds. "It is postulated that the combination of the tighter binding and, perhaps, the failure of some test methods, make it more contagious," she says.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
11-Jan-2021 12:40 Message #4803016
It's human nature, people can only be scared so much for so long.
Different people react in different ways, we can see it on here - some will retreat into their shell and hide away under the bedclothes making sure it can't get them. Some will shrug it off, maybe not at first, but as time goes by they realise they can't stay locked away forever.
Whether it's right or wrong, no matter what the infection figures say, you cannot stop human nature...
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
11-Jan-2021 12:50 Message #4803019
Lyn you are confusing what happens once the virus enters the body with how it gets into the body in the first place.
I don't disagree for one moment that this virus seems to be more aggressive than "ordinary flu", and once it enters human cells can do great harm.
But my point is simply about how infected droplets get into our bodies....
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon
11-Jan-2021 13:22 Message #4803025
Templar2013 Male South East London
11-Jan-2021 11:54 new Message #4803008
The simple measures of washing hands, wearing a mask and keeping spaced are the ones which will be the most effective but only if the public stick to the regulations.


Therein lies the problem. Those procedures do work and this has been proven numerous times around the world with past pandemics but it relies on the public showing more than a minimal amount of common sense. Even today I have seen plenty of idiots in the supermarkets with no masks picking things up and putting them back down.

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