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The Russia Report

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Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 10:57 Message #4787432
First indications according to Committee members is that the government did not dig deep enough to uncover any Russian collusion in Britain. Reading between the lines this could also mean none was found. But they would not admit this.

Any comments.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
22-Jul-2020 11:59 Message #4787446
I do believe that the focus was on IS and terrorist suspects here and that takes an enormous amount of time and resourses. But the intelligence services are directed by government and that governments since 2008 have ignored Russia, despite Litvinenko, concerns about the amount of money laundering in the City, donations to political parties from people close to the Russian state, the annexation of Crimea, is a cause for concern.

You could be right and that no evidence of collusion was found, but if the question was never formally asked then it would not be formally answered because few resourses would of been put to looking. To me this sounds more like people at the top not understanding how social media influences things, how the cyber world is so integrated with the physical one and what the risks are, so there was little instruction or resourses for dealing with it.

I watched the reports on Newsnight with my spy thriller head on and thought if this was a Le Carre novel, what would be going on underneath? The resurgence of the Russia watchers, who may have felt displaced after the cold war ended? An attempt to undermine the Conservative government and Boris Johnson in particular? Why would "they" want to do so? Because they see Johnson and his cronies as undermining them, Britains security, not taking threats posed seriously enough? That successive governments are being swayed by dirty money?

I do think that some of the measures that have been called for, such as limiting the amount of lobbying from foreign companies and governments should be restricted and the amounts of party political funding that foreign nationals or newly naturalised foreign citizens should definately be restricted. I don't like all this donate a few grand to party coffers and get lunch with a grandee or two, that just feels icky to me.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
22-Jul-2020 12:40 Message #4787450
From the interview I listened to but can't recall who and where, the point was made that no evidence doesn't mean no evidence if evidence has not been sought in the first place.

If you don't look you don't find but you can't say you looked and found nothing, you can only say you found nothing without looking.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 16:35 Message #4787463
hehehe !

JL
The statement of members of the committee contain a certain, if not a lot, of ambiguity and non-committment from the establishment.

The Tories did not dig deep enough.

Does the committee know that there is something to find if they did dig deeper, in which case, spit it out, advise the Conservatives what it is. Are they accusing the Tories of being in collusion with the Russians? in not digging deep enough? What are they saying. Why will they not accept the findings of the Report?

The result of the Russian Report, is that there is no evidence of Russian collusion. That's it. Do they want, nonetheless, the public to fear and hate the Russians? What is their 'game'?

I don't know how long a period the Report covers, but at the time oligarghs and dirty money is what happened, obviously it shouldn't have, but we lived in more lenient times, and Russia was not considered a threat.

Now everything is different. The main 'thing' being, elitist remainers will go to any lengths to still get their way.

I agree Wh, there were more serious matters going on like IS, a war in the mid east, terrorism, behedings of charity workers, and other autrocities. If the Tories found nothing, then ... use MI6, GCHQ, or maybe they have and still found nothing.

Personally, I do not believe the Tories had any collusion with the Russians over Brexit. The Remainers, that would be another matter.
Male
Maglorian  Male  North Yorkshire
22-Jul-2020 16:36 Message #4787464
The Russia Report shows that the Tory government all but gave up on trying to investigate or counter Russian interference in UK politics, whilst the Tories continued taking literally £millions in party political donations from Russian oligarchs and Putin cronies!

No wonder they were so desperate to keep that particular shit-show hidden until after the 2019 general election.

I really appreciate the thread poster creating this discussion. Democracy should never be swayed and infected by foreign interference, nor should it be influenced by none UK, tax avoiding corporate lobbying. Sadly both are rife under this administration.

If I may change the subject relating to something important. Free speech appears controlled on this website. The administrators who choose which account can speak and create discussions, are selectively vetting myself and others. You only need to google midsummerseve/cabal/discussion, to see for yourself how there is a clear pattern of abuse and manipulation by the site owners. We all know by now that MrNoSaintQuiet is calling the shots on this discussion thread. What I find sinister and narcissistic is, how obedience and conformity is the dog whistle some members obey to and allow to continue.
Male
Maglorian  Male  North Yorkshire
22-Jul-2020 16:43 Message #4787465
Gilpin "Personally, I do not believe the Tories had any collusion with the Russians over Brexit. The Remainers, that would be another matter."

Could it be possible, that your beliefs are not prepared to focus on the question, that Brexit was advantaged by foreign influence? Would you rather defend the ideology than the truth?
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 16:44 Message #4787467
Maglorian. Do not be intimidated by those who try to shut you up. I for one always read your posts. There should always be two sides presented, and freedom to speak, especially when knowledgeable, in any democracy. Otherwise we decline into no more than (I'm not going to say sheep) shadow puppets, with no more individual thought than, just that, puppets.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 16:48 Message #4787470
Could it be possible, that your beliefs are not prepared to focus on the question, that Brexit was advantaged by foreign influence? Would you rather defend the ideology than the truth?
………………….……………………………………

I'm open to debate. Why would the Russians try to influence Brexit? I want 3 good reasons. How is it going to advantage them. Bearing in mind Putin is a very clever man. I really don't think he would bother.

Also how is Brexit advantaged by foreign influence. The point, unless I've missed something, of Brexit is to remove foreign influence on our political governance.
Male
Maglorian  Male  North Yorkshire
22-Jul-2020 17:15 Message #4787472
Gilpin: "Why would the Russians try to influence Brexit? I want 3 good reasons. How is it going to advantage them. Bearing in mind Putin is a very clever man. I really don't think he would bother. Also how is Brexit advantaged by foreign influence."
.........................................................................................

Economics would be the particular advantage to Putins bow I imagine. Europa is a threat to Russia's import and export markets. Especially with regulation of standards and workers conditions. It would make a perfect chess move to divide a King from it's rook.

The term "Foreign influence" was a poor and xenophobic response by myself. I should have said Ideological Influence. The advantageous position to Ideological influence from another world state would be de regulation. The Moses to the Tory bible is De regulation. Less regulation, less rights, more profit for shareholders. The Christ to the Tory bible is Tax evasion. Less tax, less services, more private influence. America style. Brexit style.

Putin knows that sewing division weakens the enemy.

Three good reasons:
Economic advantage
Dividing Europe
Ensuring Boris is elected as payment for London being the money laundering Capital of Russian dirty money.
Male
SQL  Male  Devon
22-Jul-2020 17:35 Message #4787475
Maglorian - 22-Jul-2020 16:36

If I may change the subject relating to something important. Free speech appears controlled on this website. The administrators who choose which account can speak and create discussions, are selectively vetting myself and others.

The administrator is something you would probably call 'AI' in this case in that there are a set of rules you have to abide by in you posts or the 'system' automatically puts them on hold until they are vetted by a human administrator. Now the latter has been absent for many, many months so don't hold your breath on any of you held back post being released.

Also bear in mind this is not a widely accessed messaging system and you have access for no charge at all - so complaining about it is a bit of a waste of time anyway (but if you want to moan then feel free).

SQL
Male
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire
22-Jul-2020 17:35 Message #4787476
At least I wasn't included in the list who want to shut Maglorian up. I din't know if that is true but there are definitely a few who don't like him but I think that is personal rather than in what he writes.
I always read his posts and he can make some fine points just as many other posters can. Even if I don't agree with what a poster says it doesn't mean I want to shut them up. I would rather let everyone have their say.

It is a shame that some posters cannot make a post without also finding time to criticise other members on this site or the Labour/Tory governments just because of their personal ideals. This is what really shuts a discussion down.

Russian attempts at involvement in British politics probably started well before the Second World War and I'm sure the Uk, US and China do the same.
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
22-Jul-2020 17:43 Message #4787478
Personally, I do not believe the Tories had any collusion with the Russians over Brexit. The Remainers, that would be another matter.

I think the Remainers would have had more reason to do so but I think the truth is there was no Russian interference.

You and Colonel Blink both make some good points Gilpin.
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
22-Jul-2020 17:43 Message #4787479
Personally, I do not believe the Tories had any collusion with the Russians over Brexit. The Remainers, that would be another matter.

I think the Remainers would have had more reason to do so but I think the truth is there was no Russian interference.

You and Colonel Blink both make some good points Gilpin.
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
22-Jul-2020 17:46 Message #4787480
I think the only thing Russia really wanted was Corbyn in power so he could be manipulated and British Intelligence was extremely worried about this. I don't think they care very much about Brexit.

Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
22-Jul-2020 19:01 Message #4787493
I voted remain, but I accept the finding of the committee when they say that theres no evidence of Russian meddling in the referendum and if there was the effect it had was unquatifiable. I do think that it wasn't looked for, despite there being many warnings about it, I think there was probably meddling in the last 2 or 3 general elections and the EU and Scottish referenda. I'm not sure the intent of such meddling was to have a particular outcome, but just to stir things up and magnify any legitimate concerns about our democratic processes.

I think some people are in danger of falling into a trap of believing that anyone who wished to remain in the EU was expecting this report to invalidate the referendum, that would incredibly niaeve and just the sort of division that a hostile foreign actor would welcome.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
22-Jul-2020 19:18 Message #4787499
All a damp squib really, the Labour court case with compensation payments, apologies and Corbyn looking like a right tit is much more exciting...
Male
Maglorian  Male  North Yorkshire
22-Jul-2020 19:50 Message #4787502
Interesting opinion you give there SQL. If it is only Al that allows discourse, then why does Al lah choose political difference on hold, when it challenges the homogeneous accepted 'Norm'. Some human set Allah's coding. I appreciate no one no longer pays to debate on this website. Going by the hundreds of reviews about midsummerseve, many had money allegedly stolen from them. I guess that's why it's just a debating site now.

Anyway, Imagine if you can, you are Al SQL. Tell me why you might choose to disallow this post. It's the one selective Al is holding with, "Sorry. The thread is awaiting review by admin staff. "
.............................................................................................................................

New Clause 17

Remember Boris Johnson promising £350 million a week to the NHS?
The reality is... there won't be any #NHS at all. Of course, it can be argued the three consonants "NHS" will still be around. But only with a meaningless hollow acronym. Any of us born after the 5th of July 1948, have benefited greatly from this universal healthcare, to support and protect us in our times of need. Now knowing trillions can be found for Corona Virus financial consequences, on big business and corporations based in Tax Havens. Along with the 50% affluent pensioners free meal deal. Why would any of us expect our elected member of parliament, to vote against a bill to protect the NHS?

New Clause 17 points:
(a) to provide a comprehensive publicly funded health service free at the point of delivery

(b) to protect the employment rights or terms and conditions of employment for public sector employees and those working in publicly funded health or care sectors

(c) to regulate and maintain the quality and safety of health or care services

(d) to regulate and control the pricing and reimbursement systems for the purchase of medicines or medical devices, or

(e) to regulate and maintain the level of protection afforded in relation to patient data, public health data and publicly provided social care data relating to UK citizens
www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2020-07-20a.1948.0


A majority of 89 MPs have voted against New Clause 17, with 340 votes to 251.
The New Clause intended to protect the NHS and publicly funded health and care services, in other parts of the UK, from any form of control from outside the UK.

Did you clap for the NHS and vote Tory in December condoning to this? If so; well done to everyone who voted to put Boris Johnson and his disgusting Tory rabble in charge of the country, and ensured the hardest of hard-right interpretations of Brexit.

They've, under your agreement, made sure that the NHS can be offered up, as a sacrificial lamb to massive US private health companies, as part of any post-Brexit trade deal.

It's not like we wasn't warned, and warned, and warned.

Some of the selfish among us, simply didn't care.


Full list of MPs who voted against the NHS being protected from foreign control in Brexit trade deals
www.thelondoneconomic.com/…/full-list-of-mps…/21/07/

Have a look. See if you allowed this.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
22-Jul-2020 19:56 Message #4787503
Ooh mags has found a backdoor, you cheeky little hacker you!
Sorry didn't read it, I'm guessing it's another NHS inspired rant...
Male
Kimjongun  Male  South Yorkshire
22-Jul-2020 21:01 Message #4787505
Jeremy not happy, he have to leave allotment, to answer questions about how shit he was.
Just when broad beans need picking, what Mags on about?
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
22-Jul-2020 21:05 Message #4787506
Col_B,

Exactly right in my view, I think Maglorian offers the most insightful and educated posts and trying to shut down people, whether we agree with them or not is very "China" and just what people feared about the idiotic association between Labour and communism.
Politics, though, influences everything so it is hard to exclude it.

If you get someone staunch one political leaning, some just don't want to read or hear anything that might give valid debate.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 21:08 Message #4787507
Three good reasons:
Economic advantage
Dividing Europe
Ensuring Boris is elected as payment for London being the money laundering Capital of Russian dirty money.
…………………………………………………………………

Those are fair reasons. Brexit will weaken the EU. How does Putin go about 'ensuring' Boris is elected?

Boris was elected by the country purely to carry out Brexit, and very little else. He was the choice of the leave electorate as they were advised/instructed by Nigel Farage.

The most likely reason I can think of, for this controversy over the Russia Report, and continuing Russia accusations, is that Remainers were expecting to use this report to give the impression that Russian interference was in some way responsible for Brexit. Making Brexit null and void.

I don't believe there was any interference from Russia. It doesn't sound like Putin's style It's too paltry, without the guaranteed positive result Moscow usually goes for.
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon
22-Jul-2020 21:47 Message #4787510
.Maglorian, AvitoDauphine, Wandering4Fun, Witheflow, withgoodintent, to use just a few of your names, you cannot escape your neo liberal cabal by pretending to have socialist ideals and pretending to care about others and pretending to want to help the poor. You really nasty piece of work.
You mock council house tenants? You laugh at littered communities? You make racist comments? You make snide homophobic remarks? You hate seeing the poor being helped and attack every thread where caring people try to help others. The use of fake images, verbal insults to “non-agreers”, multi profiles including a female one with access to the “ladies” room.
The only contribution you have made to the forum is reviving all the excellent votes which float around whenever one of the abhorrent trolls makes an unwelcome appearance.


With your abysmal record on here it is ironic that you even attempt to take the moral high ground. Every other post on here has some sense of meaning but your are just the same old self congratulating trash.

Russian oligarchs and Putin cronies - shit-show hidden - selectively vetting myself - abuse and manipulation by the site owners - midsummerseve/cabal/discussion - sinister and narcissistic - obedience and conformity is the dog whistle - chess move to divide a King from it's rook - poor and xenophobic response - Moses - three consonants "NHS" will still be around - disgusting - rabble - sacrificial lamb - Some of the selfish among us, simply didn't care.

The concise version but what on earth are you banging on about? We are discussing possible Russian influences in this country.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
22-Jul-2020 21:55 Message #4787516
Col_B,

Exactly right in my view, I think Maglorian offers the most insightful and educated posts and trying to shut down people, whether we agree with them or not is very "China" and just what people feared about the idiotic association between Labour and communism.
Politics, though, influences everything so it is hard to exclude it.

If you get someone staunch one political leaning, some just don't want to read or hear anything that might give valid debate.
……………………………………………………………………………………………….

Well said. Good post.
Male
Pboro Trevor  Male  Cambridgeshire
23-Jul-2020 09:05 Message #4787532
Both Russia and China are using non military methods for invigilating themselves into western democracies - aid, businesses, investments, influential friends etc. Plus the cyber intrusions to gain information, both military and technological. These two countries are now embedded into our very fabric and could cause irreparable economic damage if they so wished.

Trevor
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
23-Jul-2020 13:14 Message #4787554
Both Russia and China are using non military methods for invigilating themselves into western democracies - aid, businesses, investments, influential friends etc. Plus the cyber intrusions to gain information, both military and technological. These two countries are now embedded into our very fabric and could cause irreparable economic damage if they so wished.
…………………………………………………………………

When Russia has offered the hand of friendship in the past (more than once), or even to be recognised in their own right, the west has ignored or shunned the gesture. As a female Russian academic once wrote, they do not want our friendship, they prefer to send us food parcels.

Unless, imo, Russia and China unconditionally agreed to becoming totally westernised democracies, with NATO bases all over their land, we will not entertain any meaningful relationship. Also very frustrating for the west, because both countries are far too vast to consider being invaded. But a growing and successful economy (with China) is a new and possibly worse kind of threat, because wealth is power.

So Russia is used as the boogy man, as Napoleon was used to terrify children into doing as they were told.

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