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Trump addresses the nation.

Goes to war with his own people.

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Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 00:01 Message #4781882
A curfew is about to be put in place in ONE minutes time.

I'm off to bed and I think I am going to wake up tomorrow in a different world.
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire
2-Jun-2020 00:08 Message #4781883
The last few years has been quite bizarre. I have felt like I am in a mix of the End Times and the Handmaid's Tale.
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 00:16 Message #4781884
It's getting really sketchy already, Minnie.

Even before the end of his address, right behind him, a group of innocent, peaceful protesters suddenly got shot with rubber bullets. And after his speech, in an unprecedented move, President Trump, (surrounded my masses of secret service, WALKED from the White House to the church that got torched nearby.
He has action'd a 200 year old law allowing him to deploy American troops onto U.S soil to deal with uprisings himself if American state governors can't, (or are unwilling to), "dominate the streets" and come down hard on protesters.
This President has gone AWOL and instead of offering leadership or some solace or help to the American people, he chooses to incite and build up tension and anger. Precisely the wrong way to deal with this situation.
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 00:21 Message #4781885
"Governors. Solve the problem or I'll mobilise the military and solve the problem for you".

Nite nite all. :-) x
terry  Male  West Yorkshire
2-Jun-2020 08:46 Message #4781889
I don't know if the following quote is relevant here or not, but it is a quote that has resonated with me for many years and one of the reasons I keep harping on about learning and teaching our children, and why we ourselves are greatly responsible for what happens in our world. Slavery has been happening probably since the beginnings of society, whilst looting, burning and murder are not an answer to the ills of man, I wonder if had the USA and president Trump really learned from it's past (us here also), the events happening could have been avoided?

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”? Edmund Burke (in a letter addressed to Thomas Mercer). circa 1770

Which perhaps begs the question, should we all be doing more to stand with those who are genuinely protesting? though to be fair, I think even something as seemingly insignificant as threads on a minor site like this can be a help when it gives the opportunity to raise questions and plant a seed in our minds.
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire
2-Jun-2020 09:51 Message #4781899
Which perhaps begs the question, should we all be doing more to stand with those who are genuinely protesting?

I would say yes absolutely but when rioters take over nobody can identify the protesters and all attention is on the thugs who always take advantage of these situations. Then even those who are supportive of the cause worry whether they are helping genuine protesters or encouraging those who are only thinking of themselves while the steal and maim under the cloak of protest.

Throughout the world it has been proven that peaceful protest can be effective.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
2-Jun-2020 10:34 Message #4781902
I wonder if Trump calls in the army if they will all do as he asks? What if they refuse to follow orders that they see as borderline illegal, immoral and asking them to step outside their remit of protecting the country from foreign aggression? I don't think its that unlikely that some elements of the army would refuse to use force on demonstrators.

I do think the historic injustices that the legacy of slavery has caused do need be addressed and properly addressed before this will stop, some sort of race war has been a long time comming, its all starting to remind me of South Africa just before the end of apartied.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire
2-Jun-2020 11:03 Message #4781907
i am not religious, but to see trump holding up a bible in front of a church and using the event for his own gain turned my stomach, he,s no more than a fucking hypocrite...

rightly or wrongly, i was hoping to hear a shot ring out and take him down.
or a lightning bolt sent from above would have been appropriate.
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 12:43 Message #4781916
I believe, on legal, technical and moral fronts that no soldier or sailor or other government official is allowed to carry out any order, (specifically from The President), that could or would put an American citizen's life at risk. Rather; it's the opposite. ie The primary objective of a President is to keeps his or her citizens safe and secure. Furthermore, it would be an offence punishable by imprisonment or death if such an official, (soldier, policeman, etc), were to wilfully take a life under instruction from a superior on American soil unless acting under strict legal guidelines clearly outlined in law.

Threatening U.S citizens with incendiary style threats, vicious dogs, young secret service personnel gagging for action, (according to Trump), fire, brimstone, bullets and tear gas is probably not something the founding fathers would have ever comprehended deploying in the manner this 45th American President of the United States is doing

Anyway. Regarding law and the U.S constitution, I'm sure some learned Midsummer member will come along soon and either correct me or enhance or endorse what I have just stated.

In short though, despite enacting or threatening to deploy the 214 year old Insurrection Act against the American people, I believe Trump would still need a jumbled confusing layer of legalities to be unravelled and approved with regards to how much power a U.S President is able or authorised to unleash before anything like that could be allowed.

The Inserection Act

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That in all cases of insurrection, or obstruction to the laws, either of the United States, or of any individual state or territory, where it is lawful for the President of the United States to call forth the militia for the purpose of suppressing such insurrection, or of causing the laws to be duly executed, it shall be lawful for him to employ, for the same purposes, such part of the land or naval force of the United States, as shall be judged necessary, having first observed all the pre-requisites of the law in that respect.

APPROVED, March 3, 1807.

And we haven't even started on the hypocrisy thing. :-)

Apparently, according to the U.S.A. it has always been just fine and dandy for the citizens of other nations to protest illegally against their own governments yet when American citizens do it, (even peacefully), this President sees fit to fire plastic bullets and tear gas at them, in this latest case, just to clear a path for him to create a narcissistic, impending election motivated photo opportunity at a nearby church.

America's shameful past

The real reason for the abolishment of the slave trade happened as a result of the British losing too many plantations in America when the slaves themselves took up arms and burned those plantations down to the ground. In other words, it was only when the masters got hurt in their pockets, financially / commercially, that they were forced or willing to acknowledge a group of people who had never ever been listened to or taken notice of before.

And from that day to this, nothing has changed.

We are not witnessing riots. We are not witnessing insurrection. Rather, we are seeing the result of a section of U.S society burning down the plantations all over again because they and we know that without equality, justice, fairness or anyone ever listening to them, they have NO OTHER CHOICE but to act or react the way they have done. ie Inflicting damage to the master’s property. (Symbolised by a Target store?)

If they didn’t, (or don’t) act this way then the only option would be to stay silent, continue suffering under the heel of police officers like Derek Chauvin and allow the masters to continue enslaving and inhibiting their right to be listened to. Their right to be heard.
FirmButFair-TrollPatrol  Male  North Yorkshire
2-Jun-2020 12:54 Message #4781917
My thoughts are very similar to your Beach but this is America where actions and reactions differ from over here.

If the rioting was to get out of hand and innocent people (black or white) are harmed and shops/homes get ransacked or burnt out then it would be the natural reaction of (nearly) all those who are not rioting to demand action and that could be a public demand for military intervention.

Everyone has the right to be heard and everyone has the right to protest pecafully. Nobody ever has the right to kill or maim others whatever their cause.
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 13:08 Message #4781921
Thanks FBF.

Yes. Of course I agree and share your sentiments.

If I were an American citizen, I would have been traumatised, months ago, by the utter lack of leadership shown by the current administration in attempting to deal with the Coronavirus pandemic and I think the actual spectacle of a nation realising that their own country is truly drifting rudderless also plays into the apocalyptic multiple unprecedented scenarios we are now seeing played out before us.

I've been thinking about something for several weeks actually.

I've been thinking; I wonder if the citizens of Pompei were adopting the exact mindset I've been adopting over the last couple of months. Some concept or idea that after the earthquakes stop ... and the rumblings in the throat of the volcano cease ... perhaps ... things will settle down and return to normal.

I wonder .....
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
2-Jun-2020 16:06 Message #4781927
Citizens in America do things differently to us. The mass violence, burning and looting has to be controlled. It has spread to London, Manchester and Cardiff.

How do you suggest we handle it?

Instead of putting forward nothing but condemnation and criticism, the easiest thing to do, how would you suggest the Americans handle this?
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 17:03 Message #4781937
Hello Gilpin.

"Instead of putting forward nothing but condemnation and criticism, the easiest thing to do, how would you suggest the Americans handle this?"

Well I don't have to offer suggestions as to how the Americans handle things, (do I Gilpin?), because I'm neither black, disenfranchised, an American citizen or someone elected to help guide their nation through their current lamentable situation. Rather, I'm an Englishman simply enjoying the opportunity to offer my two penneth on a titchy cul de sac of the internet where others are free to either read, ignore or comment on any views I might throw up for debate, contemplation or titillation.
I believe the American constitution is founded around THREE orbits of power described as "the separations of powers" and the system was set up that way for a reason.

The separation of powers divides the tasks of the state into three branches: legislative, executive and judicial and these tasks are assigned to different institutions in such a way that each of them, often described as 'checks and balances', can indeed check the others.
If I were to glance in the direction of your barbed question, I'd probably reveal that I was already very surprised that no action had been taken in some attempt to metaphorically chase, lasso, catch and wrestle this rampant unhinged President to the ground, (via provisions already laid out in the constitution), before tying his wrists and ankles together so tight that he could no longer harm himself or others.

America's problems have no way of being addressed while such a dead eyed psychotic loon is in the oval office so lets hope he will be anaesthetize and made as comfortable as possible before America does the sensible thing by replacing, reprogramming or burying him. Again ... not wishing to infer I was inciting violence, I remind readers I am speaking metaphorically, of course.

If you were inviting me to advise the President personally, Gilpin, I'd be delighted to do that.

I'd remind him of the 1st amendment which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

In plain English, one tiny part of that 1st amendment makes clear that it really is a bit crass to gas and shoot peaceful protesters especially if, as President, he urinates on such an amendment in plain sight by using excessive force attacking peaceful folk with a grievance at exactly the same time he is telling a nation he defends the rights allowing folk to peacefully protest.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
2-Jun-2020 18:28 Message #4781938
Well that's a pretty long speech saying absolutely nothing except more of the same, and what we already know. No you don't have to put forward any suggestions, I think it's very unlikely you'd have any.

I'd call this a y'll Trump bashing, name spittin' thread, with nothing of substance in it except venting spleen.

" ...… or the right of the people peaceably to assemble"? I'd say the original protesters are gone, what they have now is lawlessness, complete mayhem and mobocracy.

Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 18:47 Message #4781941
Well you've won tonight's star prize, Gilpin.

A year's worth of Midsummer browsing or commenting safe in the knowledge that this is the last time I'll bother wasting any mental expenditure acknowledging or replying to your vitriol.

What we might call a win - win situation. :-) x
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
2-Jun-2020 18:54 Message #4781944
I'm not aware of anyone in this country rioting in support of African-Americans, many have peacefully protested, many are still peacefully protesting in America, despite the provocation from Trump and the police. There are some rioting and looting, but they're not the majority just as those who do the same in this country don't speak for the majority who peacefully protest.

Beach, I don't know if you've een it, it should be around somewhere online, but commedian Rich Hall did a very good documentary about the American constitution, the Founding Fathers and the system in general, it was aired on TV before the last US election.

I was watching an interview with film director Spike Lee earlier and couldn't find fault with what he said, that America was founded on the theft of land from native peoples and slavery with thousands being shipped across to work on plantations. America has never come to terms with its past, with the genocide of native peoples, the way it treated non whites and particularly Black people, in some ways its like segregation has never stopped, or thats how it appears to me as an outsider, its stopped in name only. I saw a man interviewed on tv last night saying that he has a small child and in a few years they will have to have "the conversation", that conversation is about how as a black person and particularly a male, you should interact with police and others in positions of authority, how to stay safe and not get yourself arrested or killed. What a terrible thing to have to think about for your childs future?

It seems that some will see any form of protest as quasi criminal if not outright criminal, what do you do when the ballot box is no longer enough? I think Trump is trying to copy his authoritarian hero's such as Putin.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
2-Jun-2020 19:02 Message #4781949
Ok someone can't take criticism :)

63 people have died during the riots. Over 2000 reported injuries. And an approximation of $800 to a $b in damage/loss. The mobsters far outnumber the 'protesters'. That is what the noise is about.
Beach  Male  Dorset
2-Jun-2020 19:26 Message #4781953
Thanks, Hen.

I've just trawled YouTube and done a Google search and can find several, (and I mean quite a number of), interesting U.S.A political documentaries fronted by Rich Hall so will have to investigate further to find and focus on one or more of them discussing the constitution. Fore example; Rich Hall's Working for the American Dream looks interesting as does How the West was lost. There is also Rich Hall's Inventing the Indian and The Dirty South along with several others.

I can guess what Inventing the Indian means and might actually watch that one streaming from YouTube in bed later tonight. :-)

Thanks again. Something brand new to learn and absorb. :-)
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
2-Jun-2020 20:31 Message #4781955
You do know that the frontier "Americans" were Us, along with other Europeans, French, Swedish, Dutch.

Besides America we also struck east and grabbed India, Japan, Indo-china. It's demographic Europe that are the culprits. That includes Britain, whose empire was built on slavery, conquering the Americas and being the pioneers of the industrial revolution. So its no good pointing fingers across the Atlantic.

Rich Hall, is a comedian. He is also gifted at irony. Whatever he criticises he manages to do it with exceptional sarcastic humour and a straight face. Making it impossible of offence.

Wh Trump is a people's man. They voted for him because of his down to earth/common approach, and because they were fed up of the elitist guard that own America.

Holding up that bible is what the ordinary American would understand. Unlike us, they have strong religious ties, being early settlers that fled from religious persecution in Europe..
Beach  Male  Dorset
3-Jun-2020 07:19 Message #4781972
Native American democrat Paulette Jordan has won the Idaho Senate Primary. If she wins in November, she’d be the state’s first female and first indigenous US senator: In describing Jordan, The Guardian describes her as a forceful advocate of LGBTQ rights and women’s reproductive rights.

I’d posit that solving America’s age old racist problem might begin by seeing many hundreds of similar Native American candidates step up to get elected . (There are currently only four Native Americans in Congress).
UPDATE: President Trump's curfew is no such thing and was, rightly, ignored by thousands of peaceful protesters, including folk from Oakland, who have been calmly demonstrating their 1st amendment rights of protection regarding the freedoms of speech, religion, press, assembly and the right to petition the government to air their grievances.

Unlike President Trump, local Governors and mayors recognise and respect the 1st amendment.

Seattle mayor: 'We want you to march, we want you to raise your voices.

SEATTLE — Mayor Jenny Durkan addressed a large crowd protesting George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis, telling them their “voices holding me accountable are important.”

Tuesday was the fifth day of protests in the Northwest’s largest city over the death of Floyd in police custody. Monday’s protests were largely peaceful but turned chaotic as officers dispersed the crowd at night using tear gas and flash-bang devices. Authorities said demonstrators threw fireworks and tried to storm a barricade, but citizen video showed the chaos began when an officer grabbed a pink umbrella that a demonstrator was holding just across a barricade.

Standing next to the city’s police chief at the downtown Emergency Operations Center, Durkan said she supported the crowd’s right to rally against injustice.

“We want you to march, we want you to raise your voices, we want you to continue on your path of justice,” Durkan said over a microphone as the crowd listened, mostly in silence. “But we need you, please, to do it peacefully.” The mayor, a former U.S. attorney, then took questions from some in the crowd.

The Associated Press. 2h ago / 5:12 AM BST - NBCNews
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
3-Jun-2020 10:38 Message #4781994
You know lots of peoeple who are funny have other interests apart from comedy, I'd suggest you watch some of Rich Hall's documentaries Gilpin, they are very well researched and erudite.

Did you think we didn't know that Europeans stole America from the Native peoples? Yes America is a more religious country than we are, lots of competing sects all with the absolute belief that they're right. Do you think we don't know of the injustices of the British Empire and the horrible legacy it has left in so many countries? Americans may have believed Trump had the common touch, but do they still believe that 4 years on? His popularity is at an all time low and his handling of Corona and the historic injusties of racism is alienating many. America has been its own country for what 3 centuries or more now, plenty of time for it to sort its own problems out without having to point fingers at Europe, thats just a lazy avoidance tactic. I think Trump always wanted to be accepted by what you call the 'elitest guard', but he isn't, they probably see him for the failed business man and egomanic that he is, so like many thwarted egomanias he wants to smash those who thwarted him. The Big Orange Baby is just throwing his toys out of the pram again.
FirmButFair-TrollPatrol  Male  North Yorkshire
3-Jun-2020 10:47 Message #4781996
I'm not so sure Trump is as unpopular as the media, always full of hatred and criticism, paints him. You have to remember we are talking about America. We have never had a leader anything like him and I don't think he would last five minutes on our political scene.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
3-Jun-2020 12:31 Message #4782006
All documentaries are well researched Wh, or they are not going to get air time. Did you know that Rich Hall is also a writer and musician? Comedy is his greatest talent, and has won him an award/awards. And of course he is well known for his appearances on QI. Maybe you've watched some of those?

I don't think I mentioned the Americans 'stealing' America, my point, which you seem to have missed, was that those settlers stemmed from Europe, our forebears. And that America which is constantly judged, most often by people who have never been there, quite often base their judgement on whatever political party is pushing an agenda.

They are no different to our counter part of the elite guard, they will never get over the fact that Trump got into the Oval office. They will not countenance it, and they will never give up trying to get him out of office. In much the same way as the Remainers did everything in their power to turn a democratic vote.

Will Trump get in for a second term? Based on his performance, I would say yes. Before coronavirus he was definitely set for a second term. But I wouldn't underestimate the American people, or think I can read their minds, the establishment did that last time and got it wrong.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
3-Jun-2020 18:57 Message #4782028
I've seen a few documentaries that are very poorly researched!

I did know those things about Rich Hall and I have seen on QI and many other things.

Maybe I didn't get your point, what was it by the way?

I saw earlier that the Defense Secretary has said he does not believe there are grounds to deploy the military in this situation as its no where near bad enough, this puts him at odds with Trump, so I don't rate his chances of remaining in post for much longer. But it shows another, less aggressive side of the American government, one thats good to see.

Personally I'm glad to see racism come to the fore as an issue again, I hope we can have some real world wide change and see people as people regardless of the colour of thier skin.

One of the things I didn't know until last night was how powerful the police unions are in America, there was an interview with a former Chief of Police from Minnesotta on newsnight last night, she said that many officers who are sacked for misconduct are reinstated through pressue from the union and chiefs have no power to stop it. I found that really shocking, we think this country has been in the grip of trade unions, but I don't they've ver been that powerful here and nor would we want them to be.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
3-Jun-2020 21:08 Message #4782040
Well that's interesting, what are the documentaries that have been very poorly researched? I assume you mean inaccurate facts. I'd be interested to know the names, so I can avoid them, or even check them out. I would have thought there was some kind of code of practice for all film making.

What was my point? I've no idea how many points I've made. Probably, mmm … what's the name of this wayward thread. Oh yes, Trump addresses the Nation or something similar. My point then would likely be something along the lines of pot calling kettle black. In relation to America and Britain.

Lets hope the Sec. of Defence is right, and the riots die down of their own accord.

The unions can tell law enforcement what to do? Maybe they try individual cases and judge accordingly. I think one would have to know exactly what they'd done.

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