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Deport serious criminals who rape and murder?

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A_man_called_CHIOG  Male  South East London
13-Feb-2020 07:47 Message #4770475
If they do not possess a British passport and can be sent back to their country of origin.

Fair? Good for the protection of our society?
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
13-Feb-2020 10:42 Message #4770489
The problem with that is when the people being deported have come here as children when laws about citizenship particularly for minors were fuzzy, ill thought out, or thought out at all, as we've seen with the Windrush generation there has been no planing at all. If someones been brought up here then they're a product of our system not a foreign one, if adults come here and comit violent crimes then I don't have a problem with deportation. But I do think we need to clear up properly who has a right to remain here before putting them on planes to countries they may have no real conection to other than that they were born there and lived their for their first couple of years. Also I think the sentencing threshold is to low, anyone who's been sentenced to more than 12 months seems very low, if violent offenders are being sentenced to 12 months in prison then are sentences to low, dosen't it depend on the type of violence, its context, is it a one off, is the person a continuing threat to others? Then theres the racism angle, are we deporting more non whites than whites? I know many people will start going on about political correctness, but justice has to colour blind for it to be real justice and not prejudice. It also begs the question of how do we cope with indigenous violent offenders who we can't convieniently bannish?
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire
13-Feb-2020 11:29 Message #4770500
I'd probably get arrested if I put my true feelings on this post, having been a victim of these violent crimes.

I agree with Hen, it's a different kettle of fish, I think, if they have been here since children....and its difficult whoever it is , if they hold a British we've all seen on recent news.

Adults though, I don't have a problem with, the fact it may involve a capital punishment in their countries...not a problem for me..their laws...not ours. It's victims human rights that get put aside, the offenders almost get a pat on the back.

With our over flowing prisons, officers going on long term sick through stress, not to mention the cost to the state, why not??

Rape, paedophilia ,murder are all violent, serious crimes.
Why should victims and their families have to endure the fear and anguish caused when they're released after a few years and a slap on the wrist.
Rehabilitation rarely works.

This is not a racist rant, as a lot of my friend are of various races, some even have endured some form of abuse.

Pity that some victims aren't able to decide their would you feel if it was a member if your family?
Even if I knew a family member had committed a serious crime, I would shop them in a heart beat.
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire
13-Feb-2020 11:31 Message #4770501
And yes fair and to protect society !
HonestBob  Male  the Central region
13-Feb-2020 13:24 Message #4770512
"If someones been brought up here then they're a product of our system not a foreign one, "

Well.... Ok.

I recall a story from years back when I was on the buses. A woman in her 50's was ran down, hit and run, the car sped away. The woman had lived in Glasgow since childhood.... never spoke a word of English! I'd say your thoughts are correct, but I'd like to add they may be born and bred in this country, but live within a closed, secular community that may as well be on the other side of this earth!

Then we have the Muslim/Pakistani rape gangs operating in NE England.... they were able to operate so well, for so long, destroying young British girls why? Because within their communities it was seen as..... dare I say acceptable? So many of them knew what they were doing, knew it was against our laws.... If I for one minute thought I knew anyone who was raping children.... I'd be straight to the police. Why didn't they?

Obviously the "system" covered it up to avoid the racism or what ever card they would use, but the groups of men who committed the atrocities did so with many other in the community, with full knowledge of what was going on.
HonestBob  Male  the Central region
13-Feb-2020 13:34 Message #4770513
"I'd probably get arrested if I put my true feelings on this post, having been a victim of these violent crimes."

Yes, I've really got to curtail myself on these subject for fear of, like you say, arrest, losing your job, or being banned from a site. It is so very difficult.

"This is not a racist rant, as a lot of my friend are of various races, some even have endured some form of abuse."

But thing is..... So many people do see it as racism! identify a problem, if the problem is, for example knife crime in London.... It's largely a Black on Black issue. Racist to point it out, but by looking at the problem rationally, it could save more black young men being stabbed to death! If they wish to stab each other to death over drugs, post codes, phones, bicycles or trainers, I suggest they find a better place to do it rather than the streets of London..... I know a large, warm continent where the could mass murder each other as much as they wish!!!
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
13-Feb-2020 13:47 Message #4770515

Prison sentences are lower now - simply because we have too few prisons and it costs around £40,000 pa to keep a person in prison - and many pundits are arguing that longer sentences confer no improved rehab.

In broad terms society overall has to consider whether it is willing to fund eg enough prisons to give serious offenders something akin to a life sentence - that would protect society from potential future offending - but at a price of millions for a younger offender.

A more lefty approach is to look at societal conditions and consider which aspects if any have contributed to offending behaviours - be that broken homes/lack of education/work opportunities etc.

We have already discussed the major threats in work arena.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
13-Feb-2020 19:04 Message #4770573
So Boydel, what do you suggest we do about it?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
13-Feb-2020 19:37 Message #4770574
In effect you are asking what should be done about crime in general?

Playing devil's advocate - the lefty approach outlined above would need a ground up rebuild of UK society - and if you were really serious about eradicating all aberrations over say next 3 generations - you might even have to adopt the Nazi approach of culling sub optimal members of society/intervene around who could be partnered with whom or breed with etc...maybe have all non impotent males and all women of child bearing age genetically tested and formulating some means of limiting the more likely birth aberrations.

More generally there are obvs the 3 needs of society around crime - punishment/dissuasion/rehab.

Given the high rates of recidivism the first 2 are seemingly not working and rehab is next to non existent - so society as I said earlier needs to decide how much funding it is willing to devote to the overall issue - eg are we gonna fund recruitment of thousands of Clinical Psychologists to seek to address the Rehab issue?

I am lead to believe there are highly prevalent issues of low IQ/poor education in the prison population and the former makes it difficult to remedy the latter.

Are we gonna pump more money in to housing benefit for ex-offenders so they can have somewhere decent to live - and also fund rehab for the also highly prevalent drug abuse?
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire
13-Feb-2020 19:52 Message #4770575
Lefty approach. oh ffs, gimme a break.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
13-Feb-2020 21:17 Message #4770586
Deport serious criminals

Absolutely. What is the alternative, let them out of prison to carry on committing. Serious crimes like dealing in class A drug rape, etc., is unacceptable today, and society needs protecting before these criminals.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
13-Feb-2020 21:56 Message #4770597
I think if children have become criminals and have been here in UK since childhood, and have a British passport, they are UK responsibility and a consequence of UK systems. To ship them abroad, when many of them have children and parents here in UK is passing the buck to another society who has not invested in them.

Even if you or I think the UK should get rid and think of them as inhuman, it is just as bad as shipping off all our junk to Indonesia or China and passing the buck.

Society needs protecting from all criminals, but with what?
Police, prison services, mental health, social support had been cut year on year so as the Government so-called "increase" investment, it will still not be at the levels prior to when all these services were cut.

I don't think heavier sentences work.
Think about it.
IF you were going to steal something, or murder someone, would you really be deterred because the sentence had increased?
Would it really cross your mind if you were either hateful enough or deranged enough to stab someone?

The ONLY way is to put in support at the source of when this behaviour starts so people can get help if they need it, or some other constructive form of punishment that benefits society where they have to do something to earn their keep.
OK, we can't go back to chain gangs, but maybe some community service and I don't mean helping in care homes or litter picking.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
13-Feb-2020 22:09 Message #4770599
Utopia is at least a century away. We deport terrorists, and they need to be sectioned because they are genuinely, mentally disturbed and traumatised.

These drug lords know exactly what they are doing, and knife crime is rife. They lure children into working for them, and I think the black community would be the first to back getting rid of them, to protect their own children
Wandering4fun  Male  North Yorkshire
13-Feb-2020 22:12 Message #4770601
Fear of long sentences or hard labour will not deter criminals because they never expect to be caught. The only law that is really feared is Sharia Law when being stoned to death or having your hands chopped off is very likely. This would not be popular with the electorate.
Deporting adults who have committed serious offences and are not British born and do not hold British passports is good for the country by making it safer.

Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
13-Feb-2020 22:48 Message #4770606
If you read the OP it states "If they do not possess a British passport and can be sent back to their country of origin."
So yes, get shot of them...
NoSaint  Female  Devon
14-Feb-2020 09:07 Message #4770628
I agree with Hierophant.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
14-Feb-2020 10:37 Message #4770651
Boydel, in a way yes I am, but I would like to hear your thoughts on how we deal with this specific issue within the wider whole. I think one of the reasons we are in this mess as well as so many others is that we lack a cross party consensus and its just another political football which serves no one.

I'm also appalled that you think eugenics is the answer to anything!
Redfoxcountry  Male  Leicestershire
14-Feb-2020 11:14 Message #4770662
The biggest criminals are in government and industry boardrooms. The military industrial complex has killed billions and threatens our planet, yet they want you obsessing over some bloke who had a spliff when he was 10.
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire
14-Feb-2020 11:20 Message #4770663
That is untrue Redfoxcountry and your political broadcast makes no sense on the subject being discussed. We are discussing the rapists paedophiles and murderers who have been found guilty of those offences being deported. We should not belittle the problem for our own agenda.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
14-Feb-2020 17:08 Message #4770706
My earlier clear caveat Hen - was that I said "if you were really serious" about eradicating the crime issue - implicitly implying at root level - then it is little good giving everyone carte blanche to develop randomly - then start looking at how to change adults from what society has allowed them to become.

For the subset of criminals without a UK passport we need to look at tightening up the criteria for immigration - not made any easier by exiting EU - allied of course to deportation for any offenders.

Meanwhile UK borders controls are a joke - and many large issues have no long term integrated plan as the silo mentality remains rife.

Interestingly Christian marriage for centuries has the caveat about consanguinity for obvs reasons.

In the Middle East however - even today there is a high level of tribal segregation - such that marriage with a member of a different tribe is very much a no no as the other tribe member would be shunned. Even today as a result a Bahrain client of mine in his 20s has recently married his cousin.

We are of course happy in the farming world to selectively breed cattle etc for optimum outcomes - though humans biblically retain free will to breed randomly (China being recent exception - albeit now removed the 1 child policy).

In an ideal world every child would be born in to a nuclear family with 2 lifelong loving parents having a secure home etc - and having a choice of numerous well paid career paths to suit the individual's inclinations - but the world has never had such a situation for more than a tiny minority.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
14-Feb-2020 18:57 Message #4770713
I think you misunderstand genetics Boydel, criminality isn't genetically inherited, you may get "crime families", but thats a culture they've been born into, whilst we can do lots with genetics theres lots we don't understand, even mental illness dosen't show up genetically as such things are often a combination of genes and not a single gene, the same as for physical ailments. Before you start on people with low IQ, think of all the high functioning psychopaths and sociopaths out there, as well as those with learning difficulties.

I think you should read some history both recent and further back to see just how many people had consanguinity laws set aside, consanguinity is as much a cultural thing as a religious or anything else. Yes people have been aware that breeding to closely within a family group is a bad thing for centuries and yet still it happens, if you look round old cemetaries particularly in rural areas you seem the same 2 or 3 family names cropping up over and over.

I disagree that a nuclear family is the ideal way to bring up children, there are many models for raising children, a nuclear family is only one of them.

This thread is about those who have come here as children, have lived here for most of their lives, and are products of our society, its not their fault that the British government has been so historically slack about regularising their status, just look at the Windrush Generation for examples of that.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
14-Feb-2020 19:22 Message #4770723
Whilst having low IQ/LD of course does not of itself predispose to criminality - it does mean in a modern world that many will be seriously challenged to earn a decent living and may in some cases be groomed and drawn in to crime.

I assume there is already some research data flagging why such a high percentage of the prison population have low IQ/poor education.

Obvs alternate views are that brighter criminals better plan their activities to avoid being caught.

Deportation issue - yes to young adults/maybe adolescents who came her as at least adolescents but not pre school age immigrants.
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
15-Feb-2020 21:39 Message #4770816
We are discussing the rapists paedophiles and murderers who have been found guilty of those offences being deported.

Sounds good to me.
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon
16-Feb-2020 08:01 Message #4770830
If they hold a British passport (regardless of their origins) then they should be dealt with by the British justice system and not deported!
mancers  Male  Greater Manchester
16-Feb-2020 10:12 Message #4770843
If the courts stopped jailing people for petty crimes and made them work in the community it would free up jail space for rapist, violent criminals and murderers to serve more time locked away until they are deemed fit for release, those without British Citizenship should be sent back to their country of origin regardless of their human rights.

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