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I've been seriously looking at

electric cars

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wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 12-Feb-2020 10:38 Message #4770420
My current car is great, its old but only just has 40k miles on it, so its pretty new in many ways, but when it needs replacing I was thinking of going electric, I don't do a huge amount of mileage, so battery charge won't be such a problem and I have a drive and could have a charging point installed. But I don't know, I don't know enough about the models available, the price, new or used, the options whether outright ownership or leasig would be better?
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 12-Feb-2020 11:02 Message #4770422
I too have looked but as they start at around £30,000 and I live in a first floor flat, decided it's a non-starter.
My current car is 10 years old and worth virtually nothing so it's not going to be a decent deposit on any replacement car, let alone a £30,000 one. I plan to upgrade my car next year but will go petrol again and wait for something to happen before even considering electric.
I have better things to spend my money on than a lump of metal or plastic....
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 12-Feb-2020 11:54 Message #4770425
I am at an age where I will never be interested in an electric car .

Can you imagine what it will be like when lots have paid to be electric ?

I see a time in the not too distant future when we would have power cuts galore due to over use of electricity, and/or lack of supply.

I remember when a member said that with the loss of coal and gas power stations, only burning wood pellets to keep electricity going , the lack of nuclear power stations etc, we will be at a great disadvantage, especially with buses ,taxi,s and hgv thinking of moving to electric.

It will only be then that folk will be glad of and wish they had a petrol vehicle for use, while the electric car will be unable to get enough juice to run around on.

Short sightedness in my opinion, what about using hydrogen vehicles ?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 12-Feb-2020 12:42 Message #4770426
Govt could easily accelerate a switch to EVs by either raising VED or fuel tax for petrol/diesel vehicles.

The more powerful/expensive ICE vehicles already pay over £1000 VED in year one

Grid production issues could be partly mitigated by say allowing EVs to be charged on alternate days by postcode - though across the UK around 20% of people live in flats so would be obliged to use some public charging facility.

Bottom line is whichever engine type one has Govt are not gonna give up the massive tax take from private and commercial vehicle users.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 12-Feb-2020 15:36 Message #4770432
ive always said the hydrogen fuel cell is the way forward...too many negatives with EV,s.
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 12-Feb-2020 15:56 Message #4770434

then there is the cost of lithium battery replacement for a car, even more so if you are thinking of buying a used electric one.

If electric cars are so great and so wanted, who would want to sell one second hand ?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 12-Feb-2020 16:17 Message #4770435
The value of EVs seems to plummet faster than ICE cars - so I guess with an EV battery replacement costing maybe £8000 - once the EV gets a few yrs old the owner wants rid so someone else funds the replacement battery.

Mate of mine has a Nissan EV and despite constantly extolling it's virtues is also constantly bitching about lack of charging points on a journey from DT6 to London.

With an ICE there are no worries about cold weather needing a heater on - night time needing lights and heater on - wet weather needing wipers - nor stop/start traffic conditions all of which lowers the theoretical mileage capability of an EV. Ambient temp of course partly governs battery voltage so winter running will be more compromised.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 12-Feb-2020 18:52 Message #4770441
I agree Fosy, I think it should be fairly simple to convert the existing infrastructure to hydrogen, but then people will probably tell me otherwise, but then I'm neither an engineer or a chemist.

Whats VED and ICE?

If as an encouragement to switch you got a discount on solar roof panels then you could generate your own power for your car.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 12-Feb-2020 19:54 Message #4770445
VED = Vehicle excise duty aka Car Tax
ICE= Internal combustion engine - the petrol/diesel engines
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 12-Feb-2020 20:13 Message #4770446
Now that the resale price of power to grid has been lowered I imagine the payback time to recover the installation cost of solar panels will be quite long.

It also only makes sense if you plan to remain in same property long term - and thus need to be fairly young to start with - unless there is a big hike in electricity cost of course.

Similar scenario on payback time with say a newly fitted condensing GCH boiler - if you save say £100 pa it can take 30 yrs to recover a £3000 installation cost.

In second half of 20thC people moved house on average about every 7 yrs - but with massive transaction costs these days that is no longer happening with home owners.
Seasons-Greetings  Male  Essex 12-Feb-2020 20:25 Message #4770447
I wonder how long it's going to take the geniuses at HMRC to work out that there's going to be a black hole developing in the finances when there's the level of fuel duty coming in starts to fall.
In the last financial year this was £27.9 Billion.
At the moment that is very easy for the Govt to collect and the public to pay each time they fill up.
I can see them having to whack up tax on electricity, bring in VED for electric cars and bring in pay per mile too.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 12-Feb-2020 20:34 Message #4770448
Interesting SG - that is damn near the same amount spent annually funding HB/LHA for 4.7 million claimants - and exactly what I flagged above.
NoSaint  Female  Devon 12-Feb-2020 21:07 Message #4770451
If I went all electric I would lease the car as the future is an unknown.
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 12-Feb-2020 21:45 Message #4770452
Personally I would leave it a few years. I expect that there will be a price crash coming up much like the projections for solar battery products. Until the prices become more competitive the market will remain stunted.

fosy  Male  Leicestershire 12-Feb-2020 22:34 Message #4770455
i think the major problem with the hydrogen fuel cell is getting the pressure high enough, once that's cracked it should be a straight forward development.

what would help EV,S is to have some kind of bluetooth charging method, or better still is for the vehicle to produce its own power.

its believed that there is not enough cobalt in the world to produce all the batteries that will be needed, indeed, recently, the dutch wanted to dredge the seabed to mine cobalt...further destruction the seas could do without.

it took me a little while to suss what ICE meant, usually in the motoring world it stands for in car entertainment.
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 13-Feb-2020 06:23 Message #4770469
ive always said the hydrogen fuel cell is the way forward...too many negatives with EV,s.

Much more time and effort must be put into improving hydrogen fuel cells.
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire 13-Feb-2020 09:41 Message #4770482
How well do electric cars travel over ice and snow or during extremely wet storms and high water levels on some roads? I would also have some concerns about the future when 100 electric cars are stuck in a motorway holdup for hours and they all have flat batteries.
Seasons-Greetings  Male  Essex 13-Feb-2020 10:18 Message #4770487
The use of FCEV's (fuel cell electric vehicles) is surely the way forward if we're looking for a futuristic method of propulsion.
The only problem is that currently it's still very expensive to make a kg of hydrogen fuel (it's sold by weight) but it would be a far easier concept for people to get used to switching to given that it's virtually the same as what we're used to when filling up with petrol and diesel in that you go to a fuel station, connect a hose and fill the tank up. The time to do this is comparable to conventional fuel and the vehicles range is about 75% of conventional vehicles.
And any fuel duty can even be collected the same way as now at source as you fill up. So the more you drive the more you pay.
But it would seem that the decision has been made for us and electric vehicles will be what we'll have to move to.

The other question that seems to have been largely overlooked is where is all the copper required for EV's going to come from, and at what cost to the environment.
An average conventional car uses between 18-49lbs of copper. An average battery powered EV car uses 183lbs and an EV Bus will need a huge 814lbs.
It is estimated that by 2027 this increased demand for copper will exceed the total amount produced by China in 2017.
And that's before you've even got to the extraction (and resulting destruction of environments) of the rare and hard to get at precious metals like lithium, graphite and cobalt that are are going to be required for the batteries.
I don't suppose the producers of say cobalt (of which 66 % comes from the Congo) are going to be having too many sleepless nights as they see the value of the production sky rocket as demand increases.
They will have a stranglehold on production, availability and price just like the Middle East now has with oil.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 13-Feb-2020 10:45 Message #4770490
This is what frustrates me about these environmentalist types who say we've just got to do this yet have no answers how.
Oil is the enemy, just like meat and dairy is the enemy to many so they blindly embrace alternatives to make themselves feel righteous, conveniently overlooking the fact these alternatives are just as bad, but for different reasons.
Nobody seems to consider how this stuff will affect ordinary people who lead ordinary lives....
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 13-Feb-2020 11:23 Message #4770498
Two factors that would concern me is:
1) The electricity has to be produced from somewhere so are we just transferring the production of energy by fuel from one location to another?
2) Temperature can affect the effectiveness of batteries.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 14-Feb-2020 10:31 Message #4770648
Bris, its these sort of questions that have provoked this thread.

Hiero, I' not unaware of the environmental impact of electric cars, particularly the batteries, but I do want to plan ahead to a future where there will be fewer petrol cars, hybrids and electric seem to be the way personal transport is headed. I am an ordinary person leading an ordinary life, but I may be less ordinary in that I want as much information as possible before making large financial descisions, I see that many car manufacturers are bring out electric versions of their usual cars, there will be an electric VW golf later this year.

One of the reasons I was looking at leasing is that as far as I'm concerned it is still new technology, its moving fast and the initial outlay for a new car is huge and I'm dubious about second hand electric cars for all the reasons others have mentioned.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 14-Feb-2020 17:51 Message #4770709
The plan seems to be that until 2035 you will still be able to buy a NEW petrol/diesel car - which may then last say 15 yrs without major issues - unless as I flagged above Govt also hikes fuel taxes to an extortionate level to force everyone to buy an EV.

Currently you can buy a 1 to 2 yr old Ford/Vauxhall for around half the new price - so that is another option in 2034 - depending of course on the proportion of non EVs available from manufacturers by that stage. Jaguar's flagship XJ model will no longer be made other than as an EV from 2020 (and for past decade 90% were ordered with diesel engines).

From what you have said you are a 2 car household at present - so spending a lot of money on fixed costs such as car tax/insurance/mot - as well as the hidden but significant depreciation - though latter will be minimal on your own older car.

It is not clear whether cost or functionality drives your thoughts on EVs - but it seems worth for example adding your annual car costs and calculating a cost per mile (check MOT mileage online if you can't remember annual mileage). Do include depreciation since you bought the car - as well as any finance costs.

Then check local cab fares and decide whether you even need to be a car owner - and if so what is the cost differential? In say 10 yrs or less you will be eligible for a free bus pass unless that has been deleted by a future Govt - though in ? rural Wales you may have little or no bus service.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 14-Feb-2020 18:43 Message #4770712
Taxi's out here, are you having a giraffe? You can mostly get one late in the evening, but during the day its difficult and as they're used by the council for ferrying children to and from school you can forget getting one for large parts of the day. If public transport was more of an option then I probably wouldn't drive, but here having a car is much more of a nessessity than a luxury as everythings so spread out and you could spend all day going to the doctors and back and hoping you got there on time, the same with the hospital, the vets etc.

I don't drive long distances, rarely more than 50 miles round trip, my current car is worth £21 according to we buy any car, when I change my car and when I do it will be either because its uneconmic to fix it or because my mum has become less mobile and I will need space for a wheelchair or other mobility aid as well as dogs, shopping etc.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 14-Feb-2020 18:58 Message #4770714
Have you always lived in such a remote location?
If not what was the motivation to relocate?
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 15-Feb-2020 11:12 Message #4770763
Its not remote, its only 20 miles to the nearest M&S, remote is when its a days drive, ferry's or flying, the last place I lived in was 3 miles to the nearest shop, bus route or train stn. I like wild places, I don't like towns or cities, I have lived in towns and I don't like it, I don't like feeling surrounded by people, I don't find the benefits surpass the negatives. I think people either like living rurally or they don't, I do like it and I seem to need to be between mountains and the sea, you can see stars at night here, loads of them because of little light polution.

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