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Raising the school leaving age

to 18

wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
12-Feb-2020 10:34 Message #4770419
Theres serious talk of raising the age of compulsory education to 18, that a young person should be in either education or training until at least that age. I've been wondering how long it would be before this was seriously considered as young people seem to be in de-facto training or education until 18 anyway, hopefully it will mean that parents get the financial support to support a young person automatically as the system from what I remember is cumbersome and not automatic. I do wonder though where all this training is going to come from, what the quality of it will be, will it become just another way of warehousing young people for another couple of years? I know there are many good courses and apprenticeships around, but what of the rest, what of the young people who are already disengaged, fed up, have chaotic families or learning difficulties, are carers?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
12-Feb-2020 13:23 Message #4770427
We already live in a world with billions of workers for whom there are no paid jobs.

Clearly today with around half of school leavers going on to Uni it has become largely an employers market - with jobs which maybe 40 yrs ago just needed a few O levels now needing a degree. Net result is school leavers are between a rock and a hard place - avoid Uni and be forced often to just accept a series of dead end min wage jobs - or go to Uni in the hope of garnering one of the better paid more permanent jobs - but even with a degree still having to compete with an ever growing proportion of degree holders.

In UK several Uni studies estimate a loss of some 10 million of the more routine jobs to automation over next 15/20 yrs - and should that come to pass then millions of extra families will be reliant on benefits to survive - though UBI has been suggested as the solution - with robotic production per se being taxed to fund it.

Overall though that seems to suggest that future generations will see a progressive fall in living standards - and in part we have already seen that with Generation Rent for past 20 yrs - for whom in many cases their only hope of becoming home owners is via an inheritance (at an average age of 61) and even then that is limited to the circa 2/3rds whose parents are home owners - and unless you are an only child any property inheritance will be split with other siblings and thus not be enough for an outright purchase of a home except by moving to a far cheaper location.
eurostar  Female  Merseyside
12-Feb-2020 18:33 Message #4770438
Thought this was already law, my grand twins are 19 and had to stay in education till 18
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
12-Feb-2020 18:45 Message #4770440
I don't know Euro, I'm just going on a news report, maybe its different in England to here, I know Scotlands education system is totally different to those south of the border. If its not law then its the law catching up with practise as most young people sem to be in educaton until 18.

Boydell, if you read what I posted then you will see that training was included and I talked of apprenticeships both of which you failed to mention, an accademic education dosen't suit everyone and nor should it, many people learn better on the job than in the class room. The world is a different place to that when we were youngsters and the world of work even more so, its been our failure to train people in the skills we need that has led to us having a skill shortage whilst many are in dead end, low paid jobs. That being said lots of the jobs and career paths now that need degrees just wern't there when we were young and the education system failed to keep up with the huge changes happening in the world of work to properly prepare people for the years ahead. I know my school was bad, but it was like being educated for the 1950's, they had such low expectation of us and so we had low expectations of ourselves.

We also need to expand adult education and bring it back up to the levels it was before all the cuts, there are loads of people in thier 30's, 40's and 50's who need to retrain and/or improve on the skills they already have.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
12-Feb-2020 19:49 Message #4770444
I did not specifically mention training etc as the future seems to be that largely the most highly educated/bright young adults will have anything like a decent career - ie one with decent real wages.

In practice as you well know many traditional "trades" employers have been opting for decades to import cheap trained labour - Polish builders/plumbers etc being an obvs example - rather than pay for the time of their experienced/older workers to train apprentices - they prefer to have those trained people earning money for the company.

I know a fair few people in the construction industry and for many yrs it's been a case that every element of say a major development is subbed out to lowest bidder - with speed of execution being far more important than a quality job.
Another mate runs a business re-enamelling sanitary ware - and he is often called out by developers to "make good" where maybe a plumber has been in such a hurry that he has dropped a heavy wrench on a bath which has already been tiled around - so a local repair is needed.

Go back 20 yrs and a colleague was bemoaning that her son could not get an apprenticeship anywhere. And 3 yrs back I spoke to a middle aged trained carpenter who was erecting a fence next door - he told me that since 2000 his real wages have halved based on what he is offered for Agency work - which he attributed entirely to cheap immigrant labour. Even more specifically another (Polish descent)colleague's son set up a Recruitment Agency in the 1990s designed specifically to flood the UK with Polish cheap labour and he is now a multi millionaire!

In part we can also blame the stop/start aka boom/bust property market - which for around 30 yrs has needed developers to shoulder a fair bit of risk if embarking on a major development - hence the crash of 1990 with a flat market for 5 yrs - followed by 2007 Credit Crunch - followed again by the 2016 Brexit decision which slowed the SE market notably and London even more so.

I often pick up Trade Magazines from my local Builders Merchant - and for a long time those publications have many articles bemoaning falling pay rates for already qualified trade employees on PAYE.

I wholly agree there have been massive changes in the world and especially work arena - latter clearly now suffers from the effects of open borders as flagged above as well as lack of any long term consistent steering of the economy by Govt.

There are a number of adult training courses for people willing to set aside the time and money involved - but again once people are middle aged (officially on 35th birthday) how many really want to set aside the time after a day at work and often a long commute? Almost nobody mow works close to home - unlike 1952 when 60% of male workers were able to go home for lunch as they lived just a short walk/bike ride from work.

Plus - joking aside - I do remember in the early 1990s after the property crash with many construction trades being laid off - Job Centres were wanting eg electricians to retrain as plumbers and vice versa etc - despite there being a surplus of both!

I may have also flagged on another thread that my cousin's teenage kids were being told at school almost 20 yrs ago that they would have no lifelong career anymore - but 3 different sectors of work each with falling income as they got older.

That neatly dovetails with the public stats on HMRC website which show 5 yr age banded earnings - which peak in the 45 to 50 age band and fall progressively in each later 5 yr age band.

As for the non academic cohort we have known for yrs that people retain more of what they see than hear - and more of what they do than what they see (aka on the job learning).

A review of the falling new build rates in UK over recent decades flags why the construction sector is not spending time on training the trades apprentices - esp so with the demise in the 1980s of mass Council home new builds - which formerly gave confidence
brisinger-the-beekeeper  Male  Lancashire
12-Feb-2020 21:57 Message #4770453
There already is. It was brought in under the Education and Skills Act that students would either stay in education or training courses.
brisinger-the-beekeeper  Male  Lancashire
12-Feb-2020 22:00 Message #4770454
The cynic of me thinks that it's just another way of fiddling the jobs figures
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
12-Feb-2020 22:48 Message #4770456
Yes of course
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire
13-Feb-2020 10:51 Message #4770492
The school leaving age in Scotland is 16, as many of their laws do differ from England.
I don't know if it differs in Wales ??

We have a student that has just started to do voluntary work with us, while pursuing part time education.
She has to do 20 hours a week as she is studying social care. If they opt to do part time they are required to either do voluntary work or go into some sort of apprenticeships.

I left school, at 16, not by choice, but by unfortunate circumstances.
I then went on to qualify as a cook, a beauty therapist, a counsellor and in BSL....and have run my own catering business.
All this was done on a part time basis, whilst raising a can be done.

On the other hand my daughter continued her education at college and ended up pregnant. Although without further education she us very savvy and now runs her own business.

My son also continued at college and spent his lunchtime in the pub.
He's eventually realised that education opens up doors, and fed up of working in a factory for years is now studying (part time ) to be an electrician, whilst continuing full time employment.

I'm all for further education or apprenticeships....18 sounds good to me
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
13-Feb-2020 10:53 Message #4770493
Boydel what do you suggest as solutions, you are very good at flagging up problems and costs of just about everything someone suggests in many areas, but rarely if ever have I seen you suggest solutions?
brisinger-the-beekeeper  Male  Lancashire
13-Feb-2020 11:44 Message #4770502
The simple fact is there's a number of professions that are continually bemoaning that they are overworked and underpaid which do themselves no favours. In my opinion it is up to the careers adviser to make sure that school leavers in particular are made very aware of several factors. From personal experience nursing is one of them. Granted some departments are overworked but it's not true across the board. I'll flatten anybody who claims that nurses in A&E are always overworked and underpaid. Some of us are left to do their job for them and after 12 hours left to it I asked for help and got the pat answer of "There's not just you". It's a fluctuating department that can be busy sometimes and not at others so is difficult to aggregate pay and conditions but at the same token if one is to take on that role they are or should be aware that this is likely to be the case.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
13-Feb-2020 13:35 Message #4770514

I am not sure there is a solution as such given the world's burgeoning population allied to increasing job automation. Within a few decades the world pop is expected to be around 9 billion - are you expecting another 2 billion well paid full time jobs to be created by then?

Just ask yourself why Wales has a pop of just 3.3 million - or Scotland just 5.5 million or the whole of Ireland/NI 6.5 million - short answer lack of jobs.

It has always been naive to believe that everyone can be equal - though of course we all subscribe to the ethos of everyone reaching their personal max potential - though sadly in some cases that will translate in reality to having a mere existence and in extreme cases needing third party intervention even for that.

As an OP said her son got fed up with factory work after a few yrs and has now paid for an electrician's course - though that along with other construction related trades is now pretty competitive - and in practice you only make a decent living by working a lot faster than the competition - so you do more jobs in a given week and get paid for volume not quality as such.

To even begin to think of solutions you need to forget the concept of national borders - because in most cases jobs go to the lowest bidders. That is why real UK wages have halved in each decade since the inflationary 1970s - and most households need 2 working partners to have any kind of decent life - and 75% of FTBs (first time buyers) are couples.

In nature survival of the fittest operates - and humans are part of that albeit the top predator.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
14-Feb-2020 10:46 Message #4770653
There are solutions, but many people won't even look at them and run around like headless chickens at the very thought of them, UBI is part of one such solution.
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey
14-Feb-2020 15:46 Message #4770693
I imagine the next few decades will see an increasing proportion of UK households reliant on the benefit system - we already have over half being net takers from the Tax/Welfare system.

Recent TV documentaries looked in depth at people on Universal Credit - and one 60 yr old single male was forced to take a min wage job cleaning trains in London for 37.5 hrs weekly - where his net extra income is only £30 weekly as of course his benefits were all stopped - and most of that would be the housing benefit element. Should he resign from that job he cannot claim for 6 months.

Other effects will no doubt be an increasing proportion of young adults unable to leave home due to a combo of high rents/low wages - though not all young adults have a family home. Working age childless singletons/couples have always been low priority for social housing - and housing ben for singletons below age 35 is just the bedsit rate which usually needs top up from the JSA/dole money of £73 weekly.

Benefit cuts/caps will also be forcing lots of low income households to relocate to fairly deprived areas so as to find affordable housing.

One does not need to be a genius to see that even white collar jobs have been decimated over past 40/50 yrs - though it has mainly been the miners/steelworkers/carworkers who have featured in the media.

johnlock  Male  Essex
17-Feb-2020 21:40 Message #4770980
I loathed my school (I don't think it liked me either) & I left at 16 desperate to be anywhere else. Sadly there wasn't any careers advice at school or at home so I just muddled through. I tried to get a motortrade apprenticeship but there weren't any going.


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