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Ethical Veganism

a legal philosophical belief system

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wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Jan-2020 11:16 Message #4767491
Someone who's an ethical vegan went to court to try and get his beliefs on a par with the protected status as a religion or not being discriminated against on the basis of gender, sexual orrientation etc and won. This was all part of an employment tribunal case he having with the League Against Cruel Sports who he says sacked him because he spoke up about thier pension funds being invested in firms that use animal testing.

I've got to be honest I don't know what I feel about this case, when I first heard about it were ffs swiftly followed by why not if it meets the legal criteria? My next question was/is, why is the League Against Cruel Sports investing and profiting from another type of cruelty to animals?

I'm not sure what the difference is between an ethical vegan and a dietry one anyway?
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire 6-Jan-2020 16:25 Message #4767508
Ooo difficult one Hen, but aren't all vegans ethical ??

Surely by the very nature of the fact they don't eat or use any by products from an animal, is a moral stance ??

A dietary one obviously would automatically follow from the above statement.

I think I'm kinda veering on your thoughts of "why not" ?
After all cruelty to animals....tortured for our benefit ?
I can think of much more deserving despicable people residing at her majesties pleasure that could oblige...
Oh but sorry that would be an infringement of their HUMAN rights !!
NoSaint  Female  Devon 6-Jan-2020 17:57 Message #4767515
Yes it is a difficult one. My fear is that eventually every choice we make in life will be accompanied by rules, regulations and prosecutions.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Jan-2020 18:58 Message #4767523
I supose there are some people who are vegan purely because they believe its healthier and for them it may be, but then I wonder if these are the sort of people who see food as fuel rather than an integral part of daily life, socialising and fun? Thats not to say that vegan food is boring, I eat quite a bit of vegan food, I just have a tasty plate of food that happens to be vegan. I guess some dietary vegans might wear leather or use other non edible animal products.

Ethical beliefs are often difficult for thse who don't share them, but that dosen't mean that anyone should be discriminated against because of them, I don't think its such a bad thing that you can't insult whole groups of people for one belief or opinion, as long as free speach is respected. You don't need to abuse or discriminate against someone to talk with them and have an honest exchange of views, of course there will be a few who are a sense of offence looking for somewhere to manifest and unfortunately they get far to much oxygen rather then being told to get over themselves.

Like I said though it does surprise me that the League Against Cruel Sports invests in companies who practice vivisection, it sort of feels like saying, its ok to torture animals as long as you don't have fun doing it?
eurostar  Female  Merseyside 6-Jan-2020 20:01 Message #4767530
well if halal is ethical why not vegan...……..

no one is 100 per cent vegan though...… would be impossible in this modern world

but it should be ethical
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 7-Jan-2020 13:10 Message #4767596
If someone else wants to be vegan by their own choice, then good for them, but I have little sympathy with the vegan movement. So many vegans are like born again Christians and would turn veganism into a proselytising religion. I therefore think that for the guy who won his court case, it was a fitting ending.
Initially, I was intrigued by the rise in veganism as a political movement. However, I have long suspected that it is driven by animal rights activists. They seem to have moved on from persecuting the pharma industry and putting bombs under shareholders cars to persecuting farmers instead. I am very wary of a political group that has had close ties with the IRA in the past.
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire 7-Jan-2020 16:02 Message #4767607
Totally agree with you Minnie.

There is an animal sanctuary not far from me and I love to visit now and then.

It is run by vegans and they even have a notice up saying if you bring any meat products on site, you will be asked to leave, yet they have picnic tables for people to use and at the weekend, a cafe.???

I love animals and I am a pescetarian, but I do find that some vegans are very radical in their beliefs.
I don't eat meat, by choice , but don't try to convert any one else.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 7-Jan-2020 18:42 Message #4767612
I agree Minnie and Topaz, I make a concious choice to use some animal products, such as leather and wool, I wouldn't enjoy it but I probably could kill an animal to use its hide, I would use all of it, even if I didn't eat it, I know people who would, including my cats and dogs. Like it or not centuries of selective breeding have given us sheep that need shearing, I know leather and wool are water intesive industries but what are the realistic alternatives? most of them seem to be petro-chemical and to my mind thats worse pollution wise.

Does the animal sanctuary feed the animals meat if they're carnivorous like cats and dogs?
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 8-Jan-2020 06:52 Message #4767647
Initially, I was intrigued by the rise in veganism as a political movement. However, I have long suspected that it is driven by animal rights activists. They seem to have moved on from persecuting the pharma industry and putting bombs under shareholders cars to persecuting farmers instead. I am very wary of a political group that has had close ties with the IRA in the past.

A small step from enthusiastic to fanatical.
Topaz53  Female  Northamptonshire 8-Jan-2020 14:58 Message #4767674

That's a question I've been meaning to find out and a very valid point.
My cat would never tolerate a diet of
Toffu or mung beans...
Nor should she !!

She loves a little treat of fresh chicken
I would never force my views on animals or humans...
I'm all for free choice !
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 8-Jan-2020 17:21 Message #4767678
I was reading only yesterday, about the experiences of a woman who was given a manager's job in a slaughter house. Although I knew what goes on, it was a lurid reminder of what beings go through who are equipped with a full set of sensory organs and sensations of pain, including a degree of emotional intelligence and feeling.

The job has affected her mental health, she is now vegetarian, and she has held the hands of weeping men who she would previously she would have thought to be hardened against the effects of what they saw.

Keeping aware of these things (It is easy to allow my head to keep sinking in the sand if I don't keep informed) to try to be pescatarian, though I no longer buy farmed salmon because of the over farming going on.

I'm not for free choice if some people's choices involves inflicting pain and suffering due to their own ignorance or lack of compassion, but I am open to people choosing to eat animals if we only produce food from a background of compassion in farming.

To me, free choice to eat meat without compassion is almost as bad as people having a free choice to beat their children.
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 8-Jan-2020 22:09 Message #4767692
I'm all for free choice !

The only sane option.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 10-Jan-2020 10:36 Message #4767846
Interesting that theres only one man posting on this thread, I had to check that I hadn't accidently put it in the womens room before HoW's contributions. I wonder why that is?
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 11-Jan-2020 06:47 Message #4767913
I'm a bit unsure about why he bothered, it wasn't as if he lost his job because he was a vegan.

I'm not surprised at the court's verdict though, if Jedi can be accepted as a religion...

Cautious1954  Female  Berkshire 11-Jan-2020 08:42 Message #4767919
A free choice for oneself is fine but that shouldn’t include any attempt to force others to share that belief.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 11-Jan-2020 08:54 Message #4767922
This is the bloke who doesn't take the bus because he fears insects will be squished by it, yet presumably drinks stuff like almond milk which does enormous damage and uses vast quantities of water to produce.
I'm just waiting for an ethical vegan woman on the checkout at Aldi refusing to zap my pack of beef mince and flouncing off because it's against her beliefs.
Happy days.... lol
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 11-Jan-2020 09:34 Message #4767925
Don't all trees need water?
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 11-Jan-2020 10:24 Message #4767931
Indeed they do, but take a look at how little water the much-maligned dairy industry uses in comparison to the non-dairy milk producers, it's quite shocking...
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Jan-2020 10:50 Message #4767939
Almond milk in particular uses loads of water and soya plantations are causing deforestation, the fact is we can't live without making an enviromental impact, but we can choose how we navigate that. I'd rather have real British wool clothing, or linen or other fabrics made from fibres we can grow in this country, I think we need more national solutions as well as global and local ones. I think the problem with cows is how much metane they fart out on a daily basis and with the dairy industry the way cows are being bred to have milk yield well in excess of what their undders seem able to cope with, the amount of hormones that are in their feed which then gets into ground water and soil and what to do with calves, especially male ones who are often killed at birth.

Like I said at the begining in the OP a big part of the guys case was that he called out the League Against Cruel Sports for investing it pension funds in companies that practice vivisection, personally I don't see how you can be ok with vivisection but not fox hunting, its like you can be cruel to animals as long as you don't enjoy it.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 11-Jan-2020 17:02 Message #4767955
If anything includes cruelty to animals then there should be zero free choice.

There is zero excuse to impose pain and suffering on animals to satisfy human pleasure of eating or otherwise.

It is insane think humans are so special above and beyond others that share the planet with us.
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 11-Jan-2020 20:08 Message #4767985
There are a couple of lectures on youtube where the journalists have traced back into history, the beginnings of veganism.
From what I remember, when they follow the money, the trail ends in the pockets of the 7th Day Adventist Church. This church also owns a lot of the mother food companies and has a finger in the Big Pharma pie too.
There is a book called The Case Against Sugar that includes some of this history in it.
The same church also backed the scientist Ancel Keys regarding the demonising of animal fats re heart health and pushing of the vegetarian/ vegan diet.
About 15 years or so ago, a nutrition journalist (a vegetarian, going on vegan) traced back the dietary advice/food pyramid in the US (we copied them) to Anceks science... And discovered that he'd doctored his results to fit his hypothesis. When his science was peer reviewed and found to be the totally wrong, peers were getting opposite results, Ancel Keys discredited the peer reviews and stopped the funding to those peers.
On his results came a raise in heart problems, mental health problems, endocrine, hormonal, mitochondrial... Lots and lots of health issues... And Big Pharma were there to supply the medicines... How convenient!
Now go back and trace the money...

The Big Fat Surprise is about this... Nutrition advice is slowly starting to change, yet we have known the science was incorrect since the 70's I think.
The books The Obesity Code and The Diabetes Code both cover the history as well as the best way forward for type2 diabetics.
Death by Food Pyramid also covers the science and history.
Real Food on Trial is the story of Dr Tim Noakes who had to prove in a South African court that the new science is factually correct and the history of the old science played a big part in his trial too. It also shows the corruption within the good lobbying system. It all goes back to the same place via 2 umbrella/mother companies... Big Food, Big Pharma and the 7th Day Adventist Church.

Some may remember I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, then developed anxiety, depression, death ideology and suicidal thoughts all mixed in with a dose of depression. I was pretty much vegetarian eating meat mayby 2 or 3 times a month... Now after doing some I depth research and reading I only eat animal based products, the total opposite of veganism... And all my illnesses have gone. I've bern leeching calcium out of my bones for years but yesterday had a letter to say there's no trace of calcium in my blood anymore. My thyroid was killed off with radioactive therapy years ago but the lump they were trying to kill, has grown its own blood supply and now all of my thyroid tests come back normal. On the almost veg diet I had bile crystals get stuck in the tubes I have from my liver to bowel& stomach.. Bloody painful a bit like gall bladder pain but a little sharper... These pains have totally stopped now because the bile is being excreted regularly, not bring left to crystallise in my liver (gall bladder remover, liver recon op done).
There is talk about banning meat and forcing everyone to go veggie... Makes me wonder how ignorant or just plain bloody greedy the three main profiteers are!
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 11-Jan-2020 23:55 Message #4768007
I read The Obesity Code and some of it was incongruous to production of insulin. I don't think there's always one right way to do something. As a diabetes nurse I've supported patients to reverse diabetes in more than one method and sometimes you have to work within the capabilities of the patient. It's been very rewarding and I'll miss that part of my work.

It's a different argument though, to where we source animal products from.

If people choose to eat meat then I'm all for banning battery hens and dairies, force feeding chickens do their own legs can't bear their weight, and forcing does to spend their lives fenced on their sides do they basically can just suckle their young.

Then there's the chopping off duck's beaks do they can't injure each other.

No, I don't think there should be any choice to continue to use live animals in that way...ever.
KatieBubbles  Female  West Sussex 12-Jan-2020 00:14 Message #4768009
I think most meat eaters care about animal welfare and would support more humane farming methods.
NoSaint  Female  Devon 12-Jan-2020 08:53 Message #4768017
Clocky. That all makes sense. Whenever we are coerced into doing something unnatural we should look at who gains financially.
Not only does the strict vegan very appear unhealthy with a life which revolves around what the cant do but nothing seems to give them pleasure. When they are not moaning about meat eaters they are moaning about something else,
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 12-Jan-2020 11:43 Message #4768043
Clocky I'm the opposite to you and a diet high in animal products makes me ill, I partly lactose intolerant, I can cope with a bit of butter and small amounts of hard cheese, but no cream, yogurt or soft cheeses, I can't digest meat, it seems to want to come out the same consistency as it went in, I can't even have something like chicken stock, eggs can be iffy too, I have to be really careful with them, I seem to be alright if they're cooked into something like a cake or batter, but not a quiche.

I know what you mean NoSaint, but I have met vegans who arn't on a mission, its often non vegans who bring the subject up, ether because they simply want to know more and sometimes bcause they want to pick fights. I have meant some who are messianic about it and like any other type of zealot are boring, I think they're just as bad as religious or political zealots and they don't have a good time, probably because they feel so insecure in their choices, if you're secure in your choices you don't need to keep going on about it. Although to be fair if you do have a restricted diet because of allergies and intollerancies then your social life takes a big hit and people don't understand and if they don't understand an allergy that could make you very ill or kill you then how will they understand something thats an active choice?

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