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What is next for Labour?

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A_man_called_CHIOG  Male  South East London 16-Dec-2019 16:49 Message #4765642
A new leader then completely new policies?
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire 16-Dec-2019 17:52 Message #4765660
Step one must be electing a new leader avoiding the same mistakes as with Corbyn.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Dec-2019 18:01 Message #4765663
Labour attracted 1000's of new members because of the policies, especially those of 2017 when Brexit wasn't so sensitive and divisive and long lived.

I think it is a big mistake to try to revert back to where Labour lost it in the last term with Blair. I don't see any of it a "mistake", more a sad collection of circumstances. Labour just missed winning in 2017 and Corbyn and the terrorism rubbish wouldn't have stopped him then if he had another week.

Even though I would have preferred Labour, even I was concerned from what started out as a rational and steady privatisation, better support for the vulnerable etc. suddenly materialised into an overwhelming giveaway on what then seemed unachievable.

Even though I am a WASPI pension woman, I would not have expected a 100% payback for everyone. I think it was badly thought out and looked too desperate.
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 16-Dec-2019 18:35 Message #4765672
In 2017 Labour was a leave party, in the 2017 election they said they would respect the vote.
In 2019 Labour had changed to a remain party.
all those Labour voters in the red wall decided not to vote Labour.
The party is in a mess, Thornberry is becoming loud again.
Colonel_Blink  Male  Buckinghamshire 16-Dec-2019 18:36 Message #4765675
When we take sides with the extreme right or the extreme left we lose the reality of truth and the achievable becomes unachievable because the extremes are tearing it apart from both ends.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 16-Dec-2019 18:40 Message #4765677
Clearly the far left are in control so the new leader and deputy leader will need to be suitable. The policies won't change for that same reason.
It's funny how history repeats itself, Labour are now in a similar position to the one they were in when Kinnock became leader, he stood up to the unions and dragged the party into the modern era.
Sadly for him he never got to reap the rewards but set it up for Blair to finish the job and make Labour electable again. The rest as they say is history...
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 16-Dec-2019 18:40 Message #4765678
I think it should split with those in the middle forming one party and those on the left forming another. Corbyn totally failed to win the "working class" that he set out to do, but then i'm not even sure such a thing exists anymore. The world of work and social class has moved on such a lot since labours heyday of rigid social classes and poor social mobility, a division between manual and office workers, I wonder how many people listened to what Labour was talking about and wondered where they fit into this vision, if at all?
NoSaint  Female  Devon 17-Dec-2019 06:27 Message #4765717
The left want to talk about the working classes, the big divide of north and south, rich and poor and anything which creates the divisions they need to survive and they are willing to manufacture the facts and statistics to achieve this aim.

The aim of Momentum is to convince people that we live Inca miserable, nasty, unfair country where the ordinary person lives in poverty and despair and everything is being made worse by all those to the right of far left extremism. They are manufacturing misery.
zodiac1  Male  Flintshire 17-Dec-2019 10:52 Message #4765751
Its funny how Tony Blair seems to have gone quiet since Corbyn lost the labour victory with such devastating results, something known by many that it was sure to happen to the twit.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 17-Dec-2019 11:18 Message #4765756
Anyone who thinks we're not surrounded by more poverty must have rose-coloured glasses.

Even the government stats reflect how much worse it is.

The huge increase in use of food banks is unprecedented.
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 17-Dec-2019 11:30 Message #4765758
I still think bliar should be tried for war crimes - against this country if nothing else....

'Manufacturing misery', that's an interesting one and could possibly be true, though not sure who or which party could be said to be the most adept at it, let's be fair here, there's no party better than the tories for manufacturing falsehoods however I do think it's true that some people thrive on the misery of others, and maybe it is momentum?

But what happens to labour now? that was the question. I suspect they'll simply elect a new leader and continue on their merry way doing as I do, slagging the tories off every chance they get, the policies may change slightly, there may be a lot of in-fighting, but no real fundemental change.
I quite like the idea of them splitting into two parties, the extreme faction and the moderates, at least people would have a better idea where they and the labour party(s) stand, bet that'd be a high court battle over who gets to use the name!

I wonder if corbyn will step down from his constituency role now? maybe retirement?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 17-Dec-2019 17:10 Message #4765797
Lyn - I think the concept of "worsening poverty " would need to be looked at in context of which dates are we comparing to present?

Like most western nations - UK uses the "below 60% of average household income" criterion - but that of course means that every time say a city banker gets a major bonus - that automatically and mathematically drags more households in to the poverty descriptor.

Relatively few UK residents are in absolute poverty - unless say they have opted out of mainstream society altogether - given that we do have a welfare system which does provide access to shelter and food - provided claimants are willing to compromise on location - eg by moving up North etc where specifically there is a smaller LHA shortfall.

In short the welfare system whilst not perfect by any means does avail basic subsistence - unlike many other nations where lack of personal income means starvation.

For many years the media has been full of debate about increasing income differentials between eg bosses pay v workers pay - but a look at base household incomes of both bottom and top 20% (quintiles) shows that whilst on a gross basis there is around a 15 fold variation of top v bottom - once the effects of taxes and benefits are factored in that differential falls to around 4 fold - ie that being the effect of a redistributive tax system.

Latter is further emphasised by the fact that over half of UK households are net takers from the Tax/Welfare system.

As I said there is room for improvement in the welfare system - Ireland for example has a similar Dole/JSA payment as their State Pension (around £206 weekly on today's exchange rate). UK's LHA has become inadequate esp in London/SE and an increase would enable for poorer households to live in locations of their choosing - rather than being told by Govt where they can afford to live. Prompt payment of all benefits in the computer age should now be more than possible.

That said almost all homebuyers have to choose location based on their finances - and most FTBs will be buying very modest starter homes - even across Greater London where average FTB has £60k gross household income as well as a £100k deposit - but will still be buying only a one bed flat or at most 2 bed flat.

I am also aware that there are 2 differing schools of thought around how benefit recipients should be allowed to spend their money - eg some think it's OK if benefits are spent on eg booze/fags etc - whilst many others strongly disagree. There is also the debate around personal vs State responsibility around looking after an individual's welfare in the broader sense (self reliance vs Nanny State).
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Dec-2019 18:57 Message #4765807
If people are forced to only use benefit money for specific things or not alloed to spend them on specific things, how will this be enforced? What would be the effect on crime? If people wern't allowed to spend on booze would they steal it, stop drinking or start making their own? If certain shops were allowed to sell to benefit recipients but not others, how would that effect people with low mobility, poor transport links and only really local shops to rely on? Would those shops decide they would only sell certain things to people on benefits, like cheap ready meals? What would the impact on health be if people couldn't or wern't allowed to access fresh food, or things that didn't give them adverse health reactions?
BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 17-Dec-2019 19:19 Message #4765810
Both USA/Australia I believe have trialled eg food vouchers rather than cash benefits - though vouches can be used to trade for cash to then be used for eg booze/fags/narcotics etc so yes policing is difficult.

The biggest single tranche of benefit monies in UK is I think housing benefit at some £27 billion pa - which via Universal Credit is now often paid direct to claimants rather than as formerly straight to landlords - that being one of the crazier attempts at "social engineering" by IDS to make people more ready for budgeting once back in work.

Rent arrears are the single biggest cause of evictions - and it is noteworthy that 2/3rds of HB claimants are in social housing (so 65% of HB goes to social landlords) - and in Q4 of 2014 some 64% of all possession orders were initiated by social landlords.

It is being mooted in media that the Section 21 (so called no fault evictions for private tenants) will be abolished in Queen's Speech - and that will in turn make it far more challenging for benefit tenants to get a new private tenancy - unless they can provide a home owning rent guarantor. Benefit tenants in private rentals are somewhere between 1 million and 1.5 million so that affects a lot of households. The total of all HB claimants is around 4.7 million per DWP so paying HB direct to landlord to avoid eviction applies to around 1 in 6 UK households.

BOYDEL  Male  Surrey 17-Dec-2019 19:30 Message #4765811
Terry - I do agree on the war crimes comment.

As for the election result - like many people I believe the election was not so much WON by Tories as such - but far more so LOST by Labour's crazy manifesto.

Many media sources have already said quite rightly that if Labour ever want to be re-elected in the modern era - they need to move far closer to a centre left ethos - as frankly the electorate can see through wild promises to give everyone a free unicorn.

In a nutshell - "business as usual" is certainly no longer an option for labour.
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 17-Dec-2019 23:11 Message #4765832
As for the election result - like many people I believe the election was not so much WON by Tories as such - but far more so LOST by Labour's crazy manifesto.

I don’t think many will disagree with that.
tumbled  Male  Gloucestershire 18-Dec-2019 00:29 Message #4765834
I've heard a rumour....that Tony Blair is coming back to lead Labour...

I overheard someone saying that 'Blair was the New Labour leader'
NoSaint  Female  Devon 18-Dec-2019 06:07 Message #4765839
HotOrWot Male Lancashire 17-Dec-2019 23:11 new Message #4765832
As for the election result - like many people I believe the election was not so much WON by Tories as such - but far more so LOST by Labour's crazy manifesto.

I don’t think many will disagree with that.

You only have to listen to the crazy rants, nasty rants, calls for violence from the mad, mad extreme left, disappointed fringe supporters to see how Labour had become infested with Momentum members wanting something completely different to what the genuine membership wanted.

I’ve seen many jokes about Blair but if it hadn’t been for the ‘illegal’ war he could possibly be a good leader to pull the party back to reality.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-Dec-2019 18:45 Message #4765906
I was never a fan of Blair and agree he should be charged for war crimes. I think one of the reasons we're in the mess we now have is because Blair made Labour Tory-Lite, I believe it is possible to have a left wing agenda and policies and do it in a way that takes people with you rather than have them laugh at you or go off on a rant. Ranting happened on all sides, the left were no better or worse than the right.
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 18-Dec-2019 22:02 Message #4765916
If Labour did split would they ever get into power again? Yes, Blair did take Labour towards the centre but, in doing so, he managed to get Labour elected.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 18-Dec-2019 22:20 Message #4765919
I see Emily Thornberry is vying to be the new leader.
Blimey I find that woman creepy, she reminds me of a sex starved aunt who is a bit too friendly with any young men she runs into...
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 18-Dec-2019 22:33 Message #4765921
I see Emily Thornberry is vying to be the new leader.
Blimey I find that woman creepy, she reminds me of a sex starved aunt who is a bit too friendly with any young men she runs into...

Dunno about that but she is creepy. Jess Philips seems quite normal.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 19-Dec-2019 09:56 Message #4765957
Personally I think Jess Phillips would be great, she tells it like it is and would be a great antidote to Boris and his cronies.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 19-Dec-2019 13:10 Message #4765973
Nigel. and then lost because he was too "blue".

That's why thousands joined Labour after he left, by 100,000 when Corbyn arrived, so it's not socialism that lost the election.
Conservative have "borrowed" votes for different guises of which some were tactical purely for Brexit.

I think splitting Labour would be their demise.

If Conservative leans more centre and starts to be fairer then I can live with it. But if they blow it, I'm sure Labour will be back with avengance as many young are joining Labour wanting a new kind of politics in their lifetime. I hope centre left wins through with someone like Lisa Nandy.
NoSaint  Female  Devon 19-Dec-2019 13:15 Message #4765974
Corbyn, Momentum and the threat of a Stalinist socialism killed the Labour vote stone dead. For the ordinary Labour voter, as opposed to the mad extreme left nutters, eve a Tory, even Boris was a much better alternative to the socialists who would decimate the poor and kill the country.

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