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State of the Union

Will it survive?

Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 5-Nov-2019 10:22 Message #4761550
Scotland are wanting another try for independence, NI is up in the air and many see another border poll as inevitable and theres a growing independence movement in Wales, many Tory voters have said they're happy to lose Scotland if thats the price of Brexit, Scotland leaving would seem to be the catalyst for the rest of the union not working. Not that I'm sure it works now, for anybody, I see the union as an outpost of colonialism, with Westminster only being concerned with holding it together out of habit, but then I also think that Westminster only holds England together out of habit as it rarely seems to do anything outside of the southeast.

What do you all think?

Are you a unionist, or for independence, could you see a federal Britain?
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 5-Nov-2019 10:30 Message #4761554
I would be sorry if the celtic regions split from the UK, admittedly my reasons are more emotional and selfish plus I can't get my head around land borders in the way such as France/Belgium or all land locked countries have...it would be a sad day for us if the Union does break apart.
Male
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 5-Nov-2019 10:39 Message #4761556
I think that secretly a lot of MPs would be glad because it would sort out the West Lothian question. At the moment Scotland gets enough funding to pay for student grants. They also get free personal and/or nursing care is available to adults in Scotland who have been assessed by the local authority as needing these services. Both of which I have been personally affected by. Currently my out goings on funding for personal and nursing care is horrendous. I question whether this has been thought through economically. It would pay me significantly to move to Scotland to have this funded for me.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 5-Nov-2019 10:41 Message #4761557
Land borders would be weird, but if we federalised then we wouldn't need borders any more than the Americans do when crossing state lines.

Why do you think '...it would be a sad day for us if the Union does break apart.'? Who would it be sad for?
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 5-Nov-2019 10:52 Message #4761561
Health is a devolved issue for deveolved assemblies, we have better social care and no prescription charges in Wales, its about how people choose to spend the money. Wales does pretty badly from the Barnet agreement, we get significantly underfunded especially in comparission to Scotland, it still feels a bit like we're a defeated nation asking for handouts 800 years later, whereas Scotland and England made a union between them, Wales and Ireland never had that choice. I must admit that I don't really understand the Unionist position in NI, why're they so attached to being British rather than Irish?
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 5-Nov-2019 10:55 Message #4761562
I think it would be sad for us as a people, we've learned so much from each other, when we've needed the Welsh, and the Scottish, and to a degree the Irish, we've pulled together, maybe I'm wrong but I was brought up to think of us as one nation.
I know there are factions and reasons for independance, and I shouldn't critiscise people wanting the power to run their own countries. So maybe a federal system might be a good alternative; I'll be honest it's not something I know much about apart from your various mentions of it wonderoushen, and would have to look into more.
I suppose one of the main reasons for it being a sad day, from my perspective, is it's breaking something, if it could be turned into building something at least that would seem a positive as opposed to a negative.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 5-Nov-2019 11:13 Message #4761563
I will be astonished if/when Brexit is finally done that people in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland want to go through a similar shitstorm for independence.
Scotland might get another referendum, but when push comes to shove I doubt people will vote for independence.
This talk was inevitable after Brexit, but in Wales from the little I've seen there isn't a clamour to go it alone.
I remember you moaning on here recently about crap dentists in Wales, sure you have free prescriptions but it's not the utopia some suggest.
We will see, maybe I'm completely wrong and in 20 years we will all be little independent countries...
Male
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 5-Nov-2019 11:27 Message #4761565
Where did Wales come into all this I thought it was supposed to be a thread about Scotland's independence? If it was a thread on devolution in general I think the NW England would like to have more of a say. It does appear to be more Westminster centric.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 5-Nov-2019 11:43 Message #4761566
Perhaps you should read it again...
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 5-Nov-2019 19:14 Message #4761601
Heiro, I meant it to be about the Union of the four nations that make up the UK, not just about Scotland or Brexit, although of course Brexit does have a part to play in why people are looking again at independence. Not everything is perfect in Wales I've never pretended it is, I have said that compared to England we have a good health service, my dad certainly thought so after spending his last few years here. There's a small but growing interest in independence for Wales and its coming out of the vallies and cities in the south not the north and west where theres traditionally been more interest. No ones saying that Wales will push for independence right now, but many feel its for the future maybe another 20 years or so.

I think more powers being devolved to the regions is inevitable.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 5-Nov-2019 19:26 Message #4761606
Sturgeon wants an independent Scotland in the EU.
The EU do not want Scotland.
I have never understood why Sturgeon does not just say this.

If Scotland decides to be independent, it will be independent.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 5-Nov-2019 19:30 Message #4761608
Sturgeon wants an independent Scotland in the EU.
The EU do not want Scotland.
I have never understood why Sturgeon does not just say this.

If Scotland decides to be independent, it will be independent.
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 5-Nov-2019 21:09 Message #4761611
Should that be "see this"? If not, I am confused.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 5-Nov-2019 22:13 Message #4761617
"Heiro, I meant it to be about the Union of the four nations that make up the UK, not just about Scotland or Brexit,"

I know, that's why I mentioned Wales and Northern Ireland in my post...

Male
Beach  Male  Dorset 6-Nov-2019 00:09 Message #4761628
I wish we could return boundaries to about 1000 years ago, (or, more specifically to around 860AD), when WESSEX was a kingdom south of a horizontal line between London and Bristol.

Leave all you troublesome folk to fight over your wealth, poverty, politics and people while we just continue our blissful, unsullied, existence appreciating life, love and the simple joys of dealing with whatever nature, weather or fate delivers us.

You can fuss about borders, Countries, Corbyn, Johnson or the ‘B’ word …

I’ll just go catching trout or mackerel, fly my drones, detect on my Anglo-Romano villa site or get wrecked down the Hope and Anchor.

I don’t actually care about the political intrigues that so many folk get wrapped up in.

As you state, Hen. Vote for who you like … but the government always gets in!

Unless we stand for office, unless we choose to enter a political den of vipers, we don’t really have much say on how things work out so all the pontificating, all the “what ifs”, all the politics of discussing hypothetical futures we, likely, can do little to change, means Jack.

Will the Union break up?

Perhaps … But just look back over the last 2000 years. I mean; historically, things have changed dramatically … every couple of hundred years! Heck. Things change every decade!

And even while you might call me irresponsible for not caring about things in the way you might wish me to care for them, I remind you, (I remind everyone), that even the concept of expressing our power as a democracy, by putting our X on the ballot paper, is no longer a guarantee that we , the people, have any power at all because it turns out that even that feeble, minimal, power of being able to influence events or the future via a democratic vote, is no longer bona fide as a demonstration of a power we thought we once yielded.

So … you guys continue to pundit and beat your chests.

I’ll just go fishing.
Male
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 6-Nov-2019 04:40 Message #4761631
Personally, I'd prefer the 'union' to stay intact and us to be remaining in the EU with the countries in the EU becoming much more like a 'United states of Europe'.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Nov-2019 11:00 Message #4761645
Things have changed since the last Scotish Independence referendum, and I think the EU may change their minds, Scotland has another option of course and thats to join the EEA, whilst awaiting joining the EU proper, they'd still get most of the benefits of EU membership. I think if Scotland did this and made a sucess of it then Wales and NI might follow.

Beach I've thought for a while now that our regional politics and identities can be traced back to the old Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms, if you lived in Wessex then you'd be no more free of politicians as all the regional kings wanted to be Bretwalda, Overking and you'd be liable for 40 days military service to your local overlord. Nor would you be free from marauding Vikings, Irish and other Anglo-Saxons. You don't have to care about politics, Brexit or a GE, but don't kid yourself that you wouldn't of had political concerns 1200 years ago.
Male
Beach  Male  Dorset 6-Nov-2019 12:35 Message #4761657
I was anticipating your, (reasonable), comment regarding living at that time and agree, life would have been raw but it would have been real and not of the cushy, armchair, style existence that we in the West seem so satisfied with.

What's wrong with a bit of hardship? It acts the same as salt on the back of the tongue ... to provide some background or datum point from which we taste or appreciate life properly.
Female
Aely  Female  Hampshire 6-Nov-2019 18:12 Message #4761684
I think London should hive itself off as an independent state. Might as well. Those in London don't seem to know or care the rest of us exist outside of election time.

We in the South could restore Winchester to its former status of Capital City.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Nov-2019 18:44 Message #4761689
Whats right with a bit of hardship? You can live your life as "raw" as you want, but I think many of the rest of us, myself included have had enough hardship to last us certainly through this lifetime if not a few others to come.

But that is aside to the main point of this thread which is about the state of the union, what and why we feel as we do? Nigel you say you'd rather the UK remaiin as the UK, could you expand on why you feel that? I'm interested in what attachments people feel and why. I don't have a problem with independence although I think a federal Britain might serve everyones interests better, or maybe for England to go it alone without the rest of us, unless an English government set out to conquer the rest of us again with military might, then I think it would profoundly effect the English and how they see themselves and thier place in the world. If you had a hard brexit and no UK who would you blame for all your troubles?
Male
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 7-Nov-2019 06:47 Message #4761715
W'Hen..."Nigel you say you'd rather the UK remaiin as the UK, could you expand on why you feel that?"

Think it's mainly because I was hoping for our association with Europe to become closer and closer. Breaking up the UK would, sort of, be the opposite.
Female
NoSaint  Female  Devon 7-Nov-2019 07:30 Message #4761718
Nigel. * Think it's mainly because I was hoping for our association with Europe to become closer and closer. Breaking up the UK would, sort of, be the opposite.*

I couldn’t agree more.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 7-Nov-2019 10:47 Message #4761745
What about a federal UK where we share things like national security, military and stuff like that, but are able to decide more locally on what taxes to raise, what to spend on, law making and stuff like that? Would that not be more representative and fairer to the countries and regions involved. At the moment it can feel like the needs of places like Wales are unacknowleged by Westminster who control how much money Wales gets, and so it limits what the Assembly can do and different regional assemblies not only get different amounts of money, but have different powers.
Male
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 7-Nov-2019 17:15 Message #4761788
But how would that affect movement between the regions? How about if I lived in and worked in different regions?

My preference would be one large country (eu).
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 7-Nov-2019 19:01 Message #4761800
My guess is being federal would effect free movement between the regions like it does in the USA or Germany, i.e not at all.


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