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BBC reported 20 NHS building projects

but Nursing Notes in contrast reports....

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Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 8-Oct-2019 19:38 Message #4756918
The BBC recently announced:

Boris Johnson has given the green light to 20 new building and infrastructure projects in the NHS in England.
The £850m package will pay for new wards, intensive care units and diagnostic centres as well as refurbishing some existing facilities over the next five years.
Mr Johnson also said there would be an extra £1bn this year to improve and maintain existing buildings.
But doubts have been raised over whether the money really is new.
Mr Johnson said the £1bn for this year was extra - and would mean "more beds, new wards, and extra life-saving equipment".


But how do you reconcile this with?

"NHS figures show that there are now a record 43,671 empty nursing posts in the NHS in England alone, according to the Royal College of Nursing (RCN).
The College says a global shortage of nurses alongside the removal of the nursing bursary has compounded this figure which now sees 12% of posts through the NHS in England without a full-time Registered Nurse.
Figures from the University and College Admissions Service (UCAS) show a 29% overall decline in applications to undergraduate courses since 2015, when the bursary was cut by the Government."


In addition, 2 years after Labour lost the GE in 2009, in 2011 the Conservative Government was reported in The Guardian:

"NHS cost-cutting will lead to more diabetic patients having limbs amputated, losing their sight and suffering worsening health, ministers have been warned. The number of diabetic specialist nurse (DSN) posts unfilled across the service has doubled within a year. A survey of 385 hospital trusts and primary care trusts (PCTs) by Diabetes UK found that 218 jobs were vacant last year, even though the number of people with diabetes is rising by 150,000 a year."

If you trust politics over personalities, and Labour is often allegedly got the figures wrong and cannot be trusted with the economy. How do you reconcile the above, bearing in mind that the UK is also leeching existing workers from overseas due to the "hostile environment" and no clarification to their future, and restricting those coming into the country?
This is in addition to the loss of citizens applying in nursing because new students also have to pay for their own training, yet are unable to work part time as unlike conventional students, often have to get work experience in the hospital shift system as an unpaid pair of hands.
Can anyone see a sensible strategy here that can instil trust those making such decisions know what they are doing?
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 8-Oct-2019 19:49 Message #4756923
I believe the Labour party decimated the NHS during Blair years and has never shown any evidence of improving it. Some of their ideas are a big step backwards.

There are many reasons why the NHS struggles and Labour cannot be blamed for all of them. People living longer. More people receiving expensive treatments. More expensive drugs on the market.

Boris Johnson has given the green light to 20 new building and infrastructure projects in the NHS in England.
The £850m package will pay for new wards, intensive care units and diagnostic centres as well as refurbishing some existing facilities over the next five years.
Mr Johnson also said there would be an extra £1bn this year to improve and maintain existing buildings.


No-one has all the answers but the above is obviously good news.
Female
Aely  Female  Hampshire 8-Oct-2019 21:17 Message #4756947
Lyn, if you have Doctors and Nurses then patients will start arriving. Then the nice newly furbished or newly built hospital will have to employ cleaners and other staff. Much better to leave it empty. Makes a really good photo opportunity.

There was an episode of Yes Minister which dealt with exactly this subject.. Series 2, episode 1, I believe.
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 21:24 Message #4756953
'Can anyone see a sensible strategy?'
Yes, but it may be only me that see's it as a sensible strategy. The below is not a comment on my strategy but my experience of the existing.

At the many meetings I attended two things were always talked about, lack of resources and funding, and increases in numbers using the service. I'm not sure whether it's being done in other parts of the country, but 'round here there is now a push on trying to seperate the ones who need medical help from those who use the NHS as a 'crutch' for other needs - often related to either emotional or mental well being. That basically seperates the service into a physical issue provider and a therapeutic provider (not the best description but I couldn't think how else to word it just now)

There is also the heirarchy within the NHS and the costs of the so called specialists, or consultants, this latter seemingly many of who have forgotten what helping others means - note I say many, because I know some very dedicated specialist who's only reason for being in the NHS is to help. A friend of mine, who's job was to check on the effectiveness of departments always came back with the same answer; a few medical staff doing a brilliant job, in many cases against all odds, and a heck of a lot of administrative or non medical staff earning a lot of money and contributing little to the effective running of departments. He accepted this could be seen as a generalisation because some of these non medical staff really cared about their work and people coming for treatment...again not all can be 'tarred with the same brush'.

Thinking of the issue on a logical level, the powers that be have been running the NHS for a lot of years and things seem to be getting worse, why? in my opinion the difficulties the NHS face are far more widespread than a nations health service. Do I trust those making decisions? not a bit, the Tories and johnson are only interested in personal financial gain and I'm afraid Labour never get to stay in power long enough to make change because the change must start with changing our view of society, and our existing view is too well ingrained to change in five years.
Male
Witheflow  Male  North Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 21:30 Message #4756958
Good point lyn. The Magic money forest always arrives before an election. Sadly, some cannot see the wood for the trees and when fed these Lies they just fall to their knees.

Hotorwot said "I believe the Labour party decimated the NHS during Blair years " Do you have evidence to back this claim? Waiting times. A&E, operations etc etc? I look forward to you backing up this typical Daily Mail clap trap.
Female
Andromeda  Female  Berkshire 8-Oct-2019 21:33 Message #4756960
HotOrWot. We are still paying for the Blair years in many ways financially and socially but he did a lot of damage to the NHS.
Terry. Good post.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 8-Oct-2019 21:45 Message #4756970
Andromeda,

How are the cuts of 2011 Blair's fault?

I'm not sure the World financial banking crash had anything to do with Blair, just in case that is what you meant.
Female
KatieBubbles  Female  West Sussex 8-Oct-2019 21:59 Message #4756976
Not only Blair and his PFI disaster costing the NHS billions but also Frank Dobson who reversed one of the Tories’ good initiatives, GP fundholding, which gave family doctors greater control over their budgets — a move that Tony Blair later described as one of the biggest errors on his watch.

“ Back in the Blair era, someone had the bright idea that the entire NHS should use the same computer system, so that patient records could be shared. So began one of the most wasteful sagas in British government history. It was delayed and delayed and delayed, and was never rolled out nationally. By the time the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition came to power in 2010, ministers decided that it would be more cost-effective to cancel the project than to continue. The cost of this procurement failure came to over £10 billion, £2 billion more than the current Conservative government agreed to boost investment in the NHS by over the course of an entire parliament. Richard Bacon, a member of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, described it as “one of the worst and most expensive contracting fiascos in the history of the public sector. ”

Labour created one disaster after another often with a view to hoodwinking the public into thinking they were doing the right thing.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 23:23 Message #4757009
HotOrWot Sex icon 8-Oct-2019 19:49
I believe the Labour party decimated the NHS during Blair years and has never shown any evidence of improving it

---------------------------
The juxtaposition of

I believe and never shown any evidence

applies exactly to your latest unsubstantiated assertions.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 8-Oct-2019 23:32 Message #4757013
KatieBubbles Female West Sussex 8-Oct-2019 21:59 new Message #4756976
Not only Blair and his PFI disaster costing the NHS billions but also Frank Dobson who reversed one of the Tories’ good initiatives, GP fundholding, which gave family doctors greater control over their budgets — a move that Tony Blair later described as one of the biggest errors on his watch.

“ Back in the Blair era, someone had the bright idea that the entire NHS should use the same computer system, so that patient records could be shared. So began one of the most wasteful sagas in British government history. It was delayed and delayed and delayed, and was never rolled out nationally. By the time the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition came to power in 2010, ministers decided that it would be more cost-effective to cancel the project than to continue. The cost of this procurement failure came to over £10 billion, £2 billion more than the current Conservative government agreed to boost investment in the NHS by over the course of an entire parliament. Richard Bacon, a member of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, described it as “one of the worst and most expensive contracting fiascos in the history of the public sector. ”

Labour created one disaster after another often with a view to hoodwinking the public into thinking they were doing the right thing.


A very well documented and informative post.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 23:51 Message #4757024
KatieBubbles Sex icon 8-Oct-2019 21:59
“ Back in the Blair era, someone had the bright idea that the entire NHS should use the same computer system, so that patient records could be shared ... the history of the public sector. ”

politico.eu/article/12-people-who-ruined-the-nhs-national-health-service-british-waiting-lists-debt/

By MARY ANN SIEGHART 10/2/15, 3:37 PM CET Updated 10/6/15, 6:03 AM CET

Mary Ann Sieghart has been a political commentator for the Economist, the Times and the Independent. She chairs the non-partisan Social Market Foundation think tank. (op cit)
But
The social market economy, also called Rhine capitalism, is a socioeconomic model combining a free market capitalist economic system alongside social policies. (WikiP)
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 23:54 Message #4757025
MrQuiet Sex icon 8-Oct-2019 23:32
KatieBubbles Female West Sussex 8-Oct-2019 21:59 new Message #4756976

A very well documented and informative post.
------------------------
Plagiarized from a longer article as proven in my posting above.**
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 8-Oct-2019 23:59 Message #4757026
Don't you people have any shame or regard for the normal conventions involved in quoting other people's work?
Probably not as you're supporters of a system run by a bunch of robber-barons
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 9-Oct-2019 00:20 Message #4757031
JustLyn Sex icon 8-Oct-2019 19:38

Can anyone see a sensible strategy here that can instil trust those making such decisions know what they are doing?
----------------------
Worry not, JustLyn.
The solution is at hand.
With Mr Corbyn at the helm and Mr McDonnell fueling the furnaces of a Democratic Socialist Government in the very near future, in a country

For the Many - Not the Few

the Spivs, Wide-boys, Thieves of Women's Pensions and Fencers of our stolen utilities will be held to account and their ill-gotten plunder returned to the people to whom it belongs.

Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 9-Oct-2019 00:53 Message #4757035
David Cameron
Six months before he won power in 2010, the then leader of the opposition gave a speech to the Royal College of Pathologists in which he promised: “With the Conservatives there will be no more of the tiresome, meddlesome, top-down restructures that have dominated the last decade of the NHS.” So imagine everyone’s surprise when, within a year, his health minister was proposing another tiresome, meddlesome, top-down restructuring of the NHS.
That meddlesome minister was Lansley. Cameron’s former boss in the Conservative Research Department seemed determined to dismantle several tiers of commissioning and supervision and replace them with other layers – often manned by the same people. It was a stupid, unnecessary distraction, at a time when the NHS needed to concentrate on how to cope with rising demand and stagnant budgets.

Cameron called for a pause before the bill became law so that he could examine it more closely and make sure it was a good idea.

It wasn’t, but he allowed it to go ahead anyway.

Later, senior Conservatives said it was their biggest mistake in government.


politico.eu/article/12-people-who-ruined-the-nhs-national-health-service-british-waiting-lists-debt/
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire 9-Oct-2019 07:07 Message #4757042
'Can anyone see a sensible strategy?'
Yes, but it may be only me that see's it as a sensible strategy. The below is not a comment on my strategy but my experience of the existing.

At the many meetings I attended two things were always talked about, lack of resources and funding, and increases in numbers using the service. I'm not sure whether it's being done in other parts of the country, but 'round here there is now a push on trying to seperate the ones who need medical help from those who use the NHS as a 'crutch' for other needs - often related to either emotional or mental well being. That basically seperates the service into a physical issue provider and a therapeutic provider (not the best description but I couldn't think how else to word it just now)

There is also the heirarchy within the NHS and the costs of the so called specialists, or consultants, this latter seemingly many of who have forgotten what helping others means - note I say many, because I know some very dedicated specialist who's only reason for being in the NHS is to help. A friend of mine, who's job was to check on the effectiveness of departments always came back with the same answer; a few medical staff doing a brilliant job, in many cases against all odds, and a heck of a lot of administrative or non medical staff earning a lot of money and contributing little to the effective running of departments. He accepted this could be seen as a generalisation because some of these non medical staff really cared about their work and people coming for treatment...again not all can be 'tarred with the same brush'.

Thinking of the issue on a logical level, the powers that be have been running the NHS for a lot of years and things seem to be getting worse, why? in my opinion the difficulties the NHS face are far more widespread than a nations health service. Do I trust those making decisions? not a bit, the Tories and johnson are only interested in personal financial gain and I'm afraid Labour never get to stay in power long enough to make change because the change must start with changing our view of society, and our existing view is too well ingrained to change in five years.


A good post terry.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 9-Oct-2019 11:00 Message #4757067
Isn't the buildings budget seperate from the staffing and everything else budget? This does allow politicians to boast about how much they're pouring into the NHS whilst presiding over a collapse in actual healthcare.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 9-Oct-2019 15:33 Message #4757104
KatieBubbles.

Not only Blair and his PFI disaster costing the NHS billions but also Frank Dobson who reversed one of the Tories’ good initiatives, GP fundholding, which gave family doctors greater control over their budgets — a move that Tony Blair later described as one of the biggest errors on his watch.

GP fundholding was one of the biggest disasters and I have worked in general practice since 1999. GP's should not have control over their budgets because they abuse it, like many think politicians do. I know some GPs who have patients at heart and want GP practice to be nationalised because many GPs are actually in the job for the status and the great wages. Where I work, the lead GP keeps as much as she can for their own wage and GP funding meant I had to beg drug reps for tissues!
I agree Blair was not great and that is why he set a bad example of a Labour government. Frank Dobson was on the right track, but it needed to evolve and not go backwards.

“ Back in the Blair era, someone had the bright idea that the entire NHS should use the same computer system, so that patient records could be shared. So began one of the most wasteful sagas in British government history. It was delayed and delayed and delayed, and was never rolled out nationally. By the time the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition came to power in 2010, ministers decided that it would be more cost-effective to cancel the project than to continue. The cost of this procurement failure came to over £10 billion, £2 billion more than the current Conservative government agreed to boost investment in the NHS by over the course of an entire parliament. Richard Bacon, a member of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, described it as “one of the worst and most expensive contracting fiascos in the history of the public sector. ”

It was bright idea to integrate the NHS systems BUT I was actually studying IT as part of my degree at that time which was really odd for a nurse. I recall arriving on my first ward back to nursing as a lower level nurse, but no one knew my knowledge in IT. Sorry it is a digression, but it was really funny because in my first week I asked if I could email surgical appliances for a huge lady who needed really big post surgical stockings and the ward sister said, "What's email?"

I then, as my dissertation had to critically analyse a critical event on a surgical ward so I decided to not do the usual wound stuff and did something on the impressions of IT and how expectations of staff, not trained in IT but forced to use a bad system affected patient care. I remember the system was run by a company called HBO based in US. I went to see the divisional manager to explain how the system was worse than my old pre Pentium laptop at home, then I got a whisper in my ear, from a nurse training people on the HBO system, to keep my mouth shut because their jobs depended on them keeping the rubbish system.

I can't write everything on this issue (as I am soon going out with MSE friends) but I learned the following.

When IT systems started we needed competition of different systems otherwise without competition you would end up with a monopoly like HBO at one hospital.
All these systems "spoke" different computer languages so could not talk to each other. No one could anticipate with advancements we would ever need a national system any more than we need to live on Mars right now.
I remember thinking, when Blair did predict all the systems would link up he was not wrong, but just presumptuous and badly informed that it could happen so quick.
An analogy of forcing people to link up the systems if a bit like getting a Meccano and Lego sets and hashing them to stick to each other but they don't actually function, and publicising it created a lot of unmet expectations and NHS complaints. We STILL have that now. We cannot receive blood results from any other hospital than the one our area is contracted to the pathology lab
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 9-Oct-2019 15:34 Message #4757106
At least no-one has said Too little too late as that's an old favourite when a government gets it right and is diffficult to criticise.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 9-Oct-2019 15:35 Message #4757107
i know you're trying hard JustLyn but your thread lost all credibilty when Good2SpoilThreads started bunging daft posts all over.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 9-Oct-2019 23:55 Message #4757178
Mr Quiet,

A game for you.

Look down the list of contributors on this link and deduce my name?

It might support my credibility.


https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/publications/2006/digital-healthcare/
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 10-Oct-2019 12:04 Message #4757231
The Government appears to have a chicken and the egg problem.

More News Today from Health Service Journal

"More than 60,000 international NHS workers could be at risk of deportation if the government was to tighten immigration rules and increase the salary threshold for visas for skilled workers, analysis by HSJ has revealed."

https://www.hsj.co.uk/workforce/nhs-could-lose-thousands-of-staff-under-brexit-migration-shake-up/7026065.article

It seems plenty are happy to look at the spending on empty building as a good thing, but completely side line problem of functionality.
Female
Aely  Female  Hampshire 10-Oct-2019 17:59 Message #4757282
The Government makes the rules. It can make an exemption.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 10-Oct-2019 18:13 Message #4757284
Never doubted your credibility Lyn and that was my point. You post an interesting and credible post but the thread loses its credibility and interest when a poster deliberately sabotages it.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 10-Oct-2019 18:31 Message #4757285
Aely Female Hampshire10-Oct-2019 17:59 new Message #4757282
The Government makes the rules. It can make an exemption.
-----------------------------
*The Tory party makes, and has made, "exemptions" on a very regular and frequent basis and does very nicely in bungs for its coffers.
One can only assume that YOU are in favour of a Society where ££££ can buy almost anything and get exemption from the Laws which govern others.
IFF Mr Johnson gets his way, the only way for a vast majority of the SUBJECTS of QE2 to get Medical treatment will be to beggar themselves.
But perhaps you've got your financial affairs set so you would be able to afford the 100s of £1 000s needed to pay for lengthy medical +/ surgical attention.

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