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RIP BrExit

1604 ACE Rules rule

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Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 17:35 Message #4737092
Third Brexit vote must be different - Speaker
From BBC News

John Bercow has ruled out another vote on the government's previously rejected Brexit agreement if the motion remains "substantially the same".

He told MPs parliamentary conventions dating back to 1604 meant they could not be asked to vote on precisely the same subject twice in the same session.

MPs rejected Theresa May's Brexit deal with the EU by 149 votes last week.

Mr Bercow's ruling came as the government considers a third attempt to get the deal through Parliament.

He said the second vote on the prime minister's deal last week was "in order" but any further votes must pass the "test" he had set out in order to be allowed.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-Mar-2019 18:39 Message #4737094
Quite right too, she's had two goes at it and lost both times.

Its one fo the oddities about parliament that it has this book of rules, most of them a bit obscure and many of them centuries old. Its part of what happens when you don't have a written constitution, its also what happens when you have an "exectutive", that is the government of the day effectively having inherited the powers that used to belong to the monarch when they ruled as well as reigned alongside a council and a parliament made up of representatives of the landowners, mostly minor aristocracy.
Male
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 18-Mar-2019 18:51 Message #4737097
The past few votes have been an absolute farce. Voting like this doesn't make us a democracy, it makes us an autocracy. Likewise whether I like it or not the fact that the UK voted to leave would have to stand as a democratic society otherwise we become an autocracy. There's more than enough of that goes on already with the 3 line whip. We don't want more.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 20:15 Message #4737101
On binding referendums:

Beware, for they are two-sided blades because they are not true Votes of the populace, they are only the votes of those who are entitled to be on the official list of voters which is compiled by officers of the Parliament.
And that is dependent on the Laws which define who shall or shall not be on the Electoral Register.
I trust we all know about the struggles for "Universal Suffrage" in UK.
Perhaps not so many will remember the situations in Switzerland which, with a population of ~ 8.5 million embraces referendums for a wide range of matters.
GOOD, you may say.
BUT
When women pressed for the vote, the question went to the electorate and was heavily defeated time and again.
The Electoral Register excluded women.

Catch 22
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 18-Mar-2019 20:48 Message #4737106
"only the votes of those who are entitled to be on the official list of voters which is compiled by officers of the Parliament."

The franchise was the same as that used for a GE. But included citizens of Gibraltar, who can vote for the EU parliament.

It was one of the highest post-war turnouts. What on earth it has to do with the suffragette movement, I am trying to work out.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 22:43 Message #4737112
@ Gilpin
Perhaps, in your eagerness to find fault, you missed that the title of my posting was:

On binding referendums

It is to be regretted that you are, as yet, unable to work out how the matter of suffrage fits into so titled Western liberal Democracy.
It is interesting that you seek to construct Straw-wo/men by introducing the suffragette movement ( and not the Women's Suffrage movement, nor the Chartists). But anything to cloud the true issues.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 18-Mar-2019 22:58 Message #4737113
You can digress but not others? The title of this thread is about Brexit, not womens voting campaigns, make your mind up.

Bercoe, (the speaker) imo is up to something. He is a staunch remainer and would not be suspending Mrs Mays treaty which keeps us nicely in the EU for no reason. Though he's quite right to do it.

Not 100% clear what the thread is about exactly, but May can come back with her proposal, with a few tweaks, and present it again. So not much difference in it. If you think it means RIP Brexit, you've got it wrong! Bad luck. It will more than likely mean an extended delay. Or possibly a no-deal exit. imo of course
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 23:12 Message #4737114
@ wonderoushen Gwynedd 18-Mar-2019 18:39
Quite right too, she's had two goes at it and lost both times.
Its one fo the oddities about parliament that it has this book of rules, most of them a bit obscure and many of them centuries old. Its part of what happens when you don't have a written constitution,


It's important, IMO, to differentiate between our (unwritten) Constitution and Standing Orders, which are written, e,g. Erskine-May et alia.
The Standing Orders are the Rules (of the Game) and govern what can and cannot be done and said in the process of determining Policy.
Once that Policy has been determined it is up to the Courts to decide if such Policy is in accordance with the (unwritten) Constitution, if the Policy is challenged.
It is the duty of the Speaker, in consultations with appropriate Clerks, to rule on matters of procedure = Standing Orders.

Every organization of any standing, e.g. Parish & Town Councils, will have Standing Orders. Almost certainly they will include a rule on the re-introduction of a Motion to negate a policy which has already been discussed and decided. There is usually a minimum time limit.
Such will stop any game of Ping-Pong with a controversial resolution.

Mr Speaker is CORRECT
And may well go down in our history for upholding the rights and duties of all MPs against the increasing annexation of powers by the Government and particularly the PM, who is not directly elected to any type of presidential position.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 23:24 Message #4737115
*Gilpin Middlesex 18-Mar-2019 22:58 new Message #4737113
You can digress but not others? *


Far from it. The issue is about the authoritarian, anti-democratic, methods by which a Government in chaos and disarray is seeking to break the rules and re-introduce a piece of legislation which has twice been refused in the last few days by record-breaking votes.

That it happens to feature BrExit is by the by, much the same that which type of car one was driving at 60 mph in a 30 zone is of no consequence to one's guilt or innocence.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 18-Mar-2019 23:27 Message #4737116
Gilpin Middlesex 18-Mar-2019 22:58 new Message #4737113

BrExit without a Deal has been rejected by HoC.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 18-Mar-2019 23:49 Message #4737118
Its not just down to parliament, no deal is still possible.
To get an extension the EU will need a reason.

1. A deal agreed in parliament.
2. Another vote (2nd referendum).
3. Cancel article 50. (No Brexit).

4.No Deal (by default), if none of above.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 19-Mar-2019 01:24 Message #4737119
1) Mrs May declares herself President for Life of UK
2) Mrs May declares herself as a re-incarnation of Mrs Thatcher
3) Mrs May personally beheads Mr Speaker Bercow
4) Ditto all 500 000 members of L Party
5) Rump Parliament refuses to endorse No-Deal-Brexit
6) Mrs May hires 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 19-Mar-2019 07:20 Message #4737120
BrExit without a Deal has been rejected by HoC.

Leaving with no deal is still the default position in law.
Unless that law is amended by Parliament, the MP's rejection vote is meaningless...
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 19-Mar-2019 09:51 Message #4737126
Perhaps May should put her deal forward with the commitment to have a referendum on "Staying out of the EU" or "Returning to the EU" in 5 years time.
Sorted...

Male
OnlineMSE  Male  Essex 19-Mar-2019 10:13 Message #4737128
That's assuming the EU 27 or however many are in the Bloc in 5 years would agree to the request for the UK to become a new member, or more likely the constituent nations thereof as there's no guarantee we'll even be a United Kingdom by then either.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 19-Mar-2019 10:41 Message #4737129
Of course every organisation has Standing Orders and they are different to a Consitution, they seem to be the constitution's operating instructions, but its rather hard to know when we have no written constitution, something I've been arguing the need for for years. People quote the Magna Carta at me and tell me thats our constitution, little realising that its been repealled several times the last being in the 19th C.

TM could end this parliamentary session for as little as a day or two, then when MP's come back she can put the same bill forward again, because the rules say that a bill cannot be put before th house more than once in the same session of parliament. But she would need to go to the Queen and ask for parliament to sent home and the session ended and a new one to begin, the Queen would then have to formally open parliament with all the rigmarole that entails. I wonder if the Queen would agree? She dosen't have too.

I wonder if part of the reason we're seeing increasingly presidential PM's is because they can be PM for as long as the country and their party can stand them to be so?

G2BW, Whilst you're on the subject of PM's being presidential, what do you feel about TM's refusal to give powers to the devolved governments that will be liberated from Europe when and if we do leave? The so called Henry VIII powers?
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 19-Mar-2019 10:57 Message #4737133
"I wonder if part of the reason we're seeing increasingly presidential PM's is because they can be PM for as long as the country and their party can stand them to be so?"

I don't understand the point you are making. That's always been the case, the only difference now is Parliament passed the fixed terms law so we have 5 year long Parliaments...
Male
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 19-Mar-2019 11:19 Message #4737135
"no guarantee we'll even be a United Kingdom by then either. "

i dont think the EU will exist in 5-10yrs time in its current form.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 19-Mar-2019 11:42 Message #4737136
@wonderoushen 19-Mar-2019 10:41
A delight to exchange perspectives with someone who is interested, knowledgable and concerned about what goes on "Under the bonnet" of the omnibus called Parliament.
You raise a # of issues which I have no doubt are being shuffle thru' by all Parties, parties, Clerks to the 'House', Mr Speaker and MANY Professors, lecturers, teachers and 'students'.

For those who may not be conversant with many of the terms used, such as:
Sessions
Henry 8th powers
Primary & Secondary legislation

May I suggest the following (Definitive) Glossary:
Helpful A-Z glossary listing key parliamentary terms and their definition (sic) https://www.parliament.uk/site-information/glossary/
---
Ah. The re-emergence of the Henry 8 powers:

1.0 ‘Henry VIII clauses’
are clauses in a bill that enable ministers to amend or repeal provisions in an Act of Parliament using secondary legislation, which is subject to varying degrees of parliamentary scrutiny.

The Lords Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee pays particular attention to any proposal in a bill to use a Henry VIII clause because of the way it shifts power to the executive.

The expression is a reference to King Henry VIII's supposed preference for legislating directly by proclamation rather than through Parliament. (ibid)

2.0 An Act of Parliament (also called a statute) is a law made by the UK Parliament.

All Acts start as bills introduced in either the Commons or the Lords. When a bill has been agreed by both Houses of Parliament and has been given Royal Assent by the Monarch, it becomes an Act.
Acts are known as ‘primary legislation’ because they do not depend on other legislative authority.

3.0 Primary legislation
is the general term used to describe the main laws passed by the legislative bodies of the UK, including the UK Parliament. For example an Act of Parliament. (ibid)

4.0 Secondary legislation
is law created by ministers (or other bodies) under powers given to them by an Act of Parliament (primary legislation).
Secondary legislation is also known as 'delegated' or ‘subordinate’ legislation and often takes the form of a statutory instrument.

The main difference between Primary and Secondary legislation being that changes to the former must go thru scrutiny and voting by MPs, whilst the latter can be changed by the pen stroke of an SoS or Minister - or even by Arms Length organizations (QUANGOs)

On H8 and the Celtic Fringe Parliaments, I don't know what the situation is/isn't other than that which applies to Primary versus Secondary legislation.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 19-Mar-2019 12:18 Message #4737137
G2BW

Digress …. was to do with bringing in a pre-historic vote about women.

Brexit is not a straight forward Exit. Apart from the immense legal and trade, which they have cleverly tied us into, it involves the hierarchy of far greater global powers of control.

I don't believe it is purely political practices of autocracy or democracy. If only it were. Mrs May is fighting incredibly well funded moguls that want us to remain in the EU and will do everything to achieve that. Soros has to be the prime guilty party.

Unfortunately our politicians are more self serving careerists than their job spec. allows, and it would appear they will change any rule that it's possible to change to achieve their end. Mrs May just doesn't have the leadership it takes to fight this, even if she may have the will. It would take a street wise character like Trump to get us a clean break. He did have Junker running over to the States with a deal in his pocket.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 19-Mar-2019 12:28 Message #4737139
G2bw

BrExit without a Deal** has been rejected by HoC.

Ahem, amendments in the commons concerning Brexit are advisory. I'm a little surprised you don't know that.

House of commons can reject all they like. Brexit without a deal, to date, stands as the default position of Article 50 should no deal be found. To extend would need legislation, primary legislation at the very least. But parliament appears to have gone mad and is flouting all the rules.

They are very desperate to keep us in, corporate business and the economy will overrule everything. they should have more faith in the nation and the people.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 19-Mar-2019 12:49 Message #4737141
@Gilpin 19-Mar-2019 12:18, wrote:

Digress …. was to do with bringing in a pre-historic vote about women.

Apart from the immense legal and trade, which they have cleverly tied us into (In our absence, or were our MEPs sleeping?)

It would take a street wise character like Trump to get us a clean break.

NOW I'm starting to understand your less than rational pro-BrExit fanaticizm.

ROFL
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 19-Mar-2019 12:59 Message #4737142
You know, if you know anything about the EU, that we are a very small keg in their political system. Our voice may as well be a distant echo. One of many of the reasons we want to leave?

Lack of democracy in the Union, ever closer Union for the republic, were we asked if we want a republic? Veto on foreign policy (not in writing yet but its in there), you do not leave without us making sure you go through hell for it.

And try looking at their accounts. They might have been written off, though that's debatable, but they do not balance, which they admit. But of the finest wine collections that exist.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 19-Mar-2019 13:04 Message #4737144
"NOW I'm starting to understand your less than rational pro-BrExit fanaticizm."

That will be me and the majority of the electorate. Which obviously you are incapable of recognizing or accepting, because democracy which you shout about does not apply to yourself.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 19-Mar-2019 13:05 Message #4737145
Of course, the speaker has also scuppered Corbyn's plans for a no confidence vote and possible General Election. Corbyn stated that if May lost again he would table such a motion.
Although, he has threatened so many things and not carried them through lately that it's anyone's guess what his actual "plan" is...

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