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The final countdown

to ... Brexit, or is it

Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 2-Mar-2019 12:33 Message #4736379
Anyone any ideas how this is likely to turn out. I must say I haven't kept up for the last week or so, there's been more amendments than you can shake a stick at, and now the EU is talking about a reassessment on the backstop?

Will it be a no-deal exit? It's the default on Article 50, written into law without any options. The House seems to be in manic chaos, or is it all just a publicity overkill.
Female
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 2-Mar-2019 12:45 Message #4736381
I did wonder if they'd be able to default on Article 50 if there was a 2nd referendum and the public voted to remain.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 2-Mar-2019 13:57 Message #4736385
But then to be fair it would have to be the best of 3. Wouldn't it. But then someone is bound to moan about the stats and overall percentages or decimal points involved. It could go on forever. Until the Euro collapses anyway, which personally I think is inevitable. We don't want to bail out Italy do we. We need more hospitals and schools.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 2-Mar-2019 15:40 Message #4736391
Who knows what will happen? I sort of support a second referendum and think that we should have an opportunity to have a say on the final deal, but to be honest I think that there are so many entrenched positions that any swing toward remain would be by the same percentage by which leave won before. Speaking as one of the 48% who voted remain I feel that anything I say will be shot down in flames and ignored. I don't think that a 4% majority for leave or remain is enough to be honest, I think the whole thing was mishandled from start to finnish, why on earth did TM want to trigger Article 50 when she had no idea of what they wanted? As brexit was never a party political thing has she excluded every other party, devolved assemblies and pretty much anyone outside of her little circle? If brexit was supposed to be about all of us moving forward together into this brave new world, then why exclude so many, listen to so few voices, she's made the divisons worse not better.

I'm wondering about how ardent brexiteers feel about America's idea's for a trade deal? Ones where we have to open our markets to agricultural produce thats currently banned, like GM, hormones included in cattle feed, for example. Or the "barriers to trade" like regulations, food labeling and stuff like that, as far as I can see its all one way, they benefit and we might be allowed a trickle of trade in the other direction. Trump has always said America first, why do people not believe him, America has always been quite protectionist about its own econmomy, so its no good expecting things would get better with another president.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 2-Mar-2019 16:19 Message #4736394
I think we should leave, the decision was taken and we should now take ownership of that decision.
A second referendum is not the silver bullet that many seem to think it is. How on earth are we going to decide what the options are going to be?
Personally, I don't think remain should be on the ballot - it should be leave with the Government's deal or leave with no deal.
To even make that choice though, everybody must at least have the chance to read in detail and try to understand what each option actually means. All I hear is people trashing May's deal, yet most have no idea what the whole deal actually involves.
Simply relying on BBC news or the Daily Mail to explain it to us is not sufficient - every voter needs access to the deal in it's entirety so we can make an informed choice.
Of course, remainers want a second vote because they see it as their best chance of overturning Brexit - if there are 3 options then there is no way anything like 17 million will vote for one option, so it's likely that the original decision could be overturned by a few million people.
God alone knows what that would do to voter confidence.

Let's get on with it and give it a go, who knows, in 10 years time we could have another referendum to see if we want to rejoin (assuming the EU is still functioning). I doubt that the EU would turn us down if there was a desire to return to the fold...
Male
SQL  Male  Devon 2-Mar-2019 20:22 Message #4736404
Hierophant - 2-Mar-2019 16:19

* every voter needs access to the deal in it's entirety so we can make an informed choice.*

The details are available at "https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draftwithdrawalagreement_0.pdf"

It's 585 pages long so the chance of a significant number of the UK electorate reading and understanding this is quite remote.

There has been a lot of debate and hot air over the outcome and the effects on the UK of leaving the EU. No-one has stated the effects on the UK of remaining in the EU (more treaties like the Lisbon Treaty which transferred significant sovereignty from the member states to the EU juggernaut).

SQL
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 2-Mar-2019 21:32 Message #4736405
SQL,

This is something I keep saying, No one discusses what happens if we were to stay in the EU.

More rules and regulations.
Join the Euro.
Pay more in yearly payments.
Join and contribute to the European army.
Our courts run by the ECJ.
Eventual end to our Parliament.
EU to decide what tax we pay.

These are just for starters.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 6-Mar-2019 11:50 Message #4736521
I think Mays deal will bite the dust again, unless she can get the changes asked for on the Brexiteer list. Can't see the EU opening up the Withdrawal Agreement for any reason, unless its 30 seconds to midnight, then there might be a short extension. It seems to be simply dragging the process on. Bite the bullet, we are capable of recovery.
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 6-Mar-2019 14:05 Message #4736523
Jacob Rees Mogg summed it up. He has said " get on with it, the people have spoken ".

What's the point of going backwards and forwards to Brussels. That lot are not going to budge.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Mar-2019 16:59 Message #4736532
What happens if we have a 2nd referendum and get the same results - do we then have a 3rd and perhaps a 4th

Do people realise just how much we are paying to be in the EU. I think we are the 2nd biggest fund raiser(for want of a better description) & this will keep going up. We should be using that money for ourselves. All we ever hear from the media is how much its going to cost if we leave, what about how much it will benefit us. Thats the whole reason for us wanting to leave surely.

What do all the young people( who have voted to leave) and the remainers, think we did before we joined the EU Common Market. Do they think we didnt survive .

I dont particularly like or dislike J R Mogg, but he does have a point... so lets get on with and stop all the dithering & do something positive.
Female
jennifer  Female  Gloucestershire 7-Mar-2019 10:13 Message #4736556
Reminded me of a song ... The Final Countdown by Europe!
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 7-Mar-2019 11:03 Message #4736564
It was a different world 40 odd years ago when we joined the Common Market, in many ways it was a less connected world, of course we survived, we all did, but the world was different back then, just as it was different a 100 years and more before that, thats not a reason for reverting to a Victorian or earlier economic model.

As for the benefits of of EU membership and the consequenses of no deal and the idea of what we can expect from other countries I would refer posters to a speech given by Lord Davies of Stamford last week in the House of Lords, its available on youtube so it shouldn't to hard to find. I'd be interested to hear others opinions of his points and I mean the points he raises, not opinions on the House of Lords or him personally.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 10-Mar-2019 13:34 Message #4736718
Mrs Mays proposal looks like meeting defeat, on Tuesday, again. Quel surprise. Where shall we be then. The ball is ultimately in the EUs court. We won't compromise on the backstop, or hand over N. Ireland to them, what are they thinking.

Will parliament dare vote against the electorate if it comes to delaying Article 50, (it would need consent of the 27, who of course could use it to make further demands) very hard to tell. What purpose would it serve.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 10-Mar-2019 18:54 Message #4736737
I think parliament will '..dare to vote against the electorate..', or the percentage of the 52% who voted leave and are happy with no deal, but theywould be voting with the wishes of the 48% who voted remain and whatever percentage of the leavers who don't want a no deal. Remember we were told repeatedly that it would be easy to get a deal. I think TM boxed herself in with her red lines and left herself very little room for manouvre and don't forget that Ni voted to remain by quite a margin. The Good Friday Agreement was predicated on Britain being in the EU, as was the Scottish referendum result and Scotland voted to remain by a large margin too, it seems to be mostly England that wants to leave and to the Irish and Scots dragging them unwillingly out of the EU could look a lot like imperialism, a union when it suits England but not anyone else who makes up the union. With her confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP May's allowing Brexit policy to be dicatated by the DUP who represent no one on the mainland and a minority in NI. I think our government thought they could strike deals with individual EU countries and that the EU would abandon Ireland, that was a mistake, the EU said right from the start that wasn't going to happen, but our cloth eared politicians chose not to believe them because they can't get thier heads around the idea that others take the idea of a union seriously and as more of an equal partnership than the unequal one we call The United Kingdom.

If TM hadn't made it a my way or the highway thing and brought in other parties, the devolved assemblies, local government, business and other interested parties right at the start then I think it would of gone very differently and a much more benficial deal could of been reached. Brexit is supposed to be about the whole country and not just the Tory party and its Eurosceptics, it was a divisive campaign and this situation has done nothing to bring the country together, just entrench positions and make people even more fed up with politics and politicians than ever. Whilst all this is going on theres no room for any sort of domestic agenda to deal with all the pressing problems like health, housing, education, transport and housing.

Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 11-Mar-2019 11:32 Message #4736751
Well, you also thought the 'Withdrawal Agreement' would get through. It was the biggest defeat in parliamentary history! But you are entitled to your opinion! Do you think it will get through this time?

Sorry you post seems to go off on all sorts of tangents I don't think I can make out what exactly you are trying to say.

I would never underestimate TM, she has to please two very different sectors of society, but carrying out the result of the referendum is absolute, if we are to keep our reputation as a democracy. And there are more ways than the obvious of doing it. I would back her myself.
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 11-Mar-2019 13:15 Message #4736753
If we extend the deadline for leaving the EU they are going to make us pay 1 billion a for every month we remain in. No surprise there then.
No wonder they want us to delay it. They might as well screw us for every penny they can get because its only ever been about the money at the end of the day.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 11-Mar-2019 13:40 Message #4736754
One billion? It's taken 2 years already, without reaching any kind of deal. We could be paying in 1 billion in perpetuity and still not have any kind of deal at the end of it. I think they're trying it on.
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 11-Mar-2019 16:22 Message #4736757
They have been trying it on ever since we have been part of it. All we are is a cash cow to subsidise the rest of the EU and keep the leaders in the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed.
Seems the remainers are quite happy with this.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Mar-2019 18:56 Message #4736763
I never underestimate TM either and yes I did think she'd get her deal through, but she's off to Brussels tonight so maybe we will know more later. Yes I did bring in lots of side issues, but I think they're important ones and need to be added to the mix if we're to remain a democracy. I still think the whole things a mess and was badly planned right from the start if it was planned at all.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 11-Mar-2019 21:46 Message #4736769
A billion a month is approx our net donation to the EU anyway.
So its not actually a bill, its just carrying on donations, I mean contributions.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 14-Mar-2019 14:59 Message #4736866
Well, May's Withdrawal Agreement is defeated, 2nd time. But never give up, it could still be presented again.

Article 50 still stands with a no-deal exit if no agreement is reached. They would have to revoke the Article to take it off. Which means they would have to revoke Brexit to do it, and that would be a big step.

The recent votes amendments are "advisory", though you wouldn't think so from the cry the media is making of it. No-deal is still on the table as it stands, we are still officially leaving on the 29th. But panic and mayhem is rife, poor old remainers, lets see what they get up to with the EU and an extension.


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