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In two sentences?

What is the Labour anti-Semitism row all about?

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Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 12:39 Message #4736070
Seriously. I haven’t been taking much notice but, apparently, things, (whatever they are), are wrong, unacceptable and in need of change … from within the highest level of the party.

Anybody care to explain things… simply … or do I have to trawl through Terry’s extremely successful but political thread to find scraps of info myself?

P.S I don’t wish to Google this. I’d like a simple explanation, (in a couple of sentences), from you guys instead. :-)
Female
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire 25-Feb-2019 12:46 Message #4736071
I can tell you in five words ;)

I have not a clue ha ha
Female
RAACH84  Female  Buckinghamshire 25-Feb-2019 12:48 Message #4736072
How very unfair and surprising of you Beach. For someone who likes to write very long explanations yourself I'm amazed you would ask anyone to give just two sentences to such a complex subject.
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 13:02 Message #4736074
Ha ha Bunny and Raach. :-)

You are quite right though, Raach. After I posted, embarrassingly, I though exactly the same thing myself.

Sorry x

OK. Then let me ask another question.

Is all the fuss about regular members, (of the public), using social media to harass MPs?

Is the "trouble" due to the labour leader not being able to stop such online abuse? (How could he stop such a thing?)

It isn't my thing. I've not taken interest but why the devil have several MPs left the Labour party citing anti-Semitism as a reason?

Yeah. Forget the two sentence thing. :-)
Female
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire 25-Feb-2019 13:30 Message #4736076
Thought you might come to your senses Beach. We know how you work now. But i can only ever think
of two sentences ha ha
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 16:03 Message #4736094
BunnyGirl.

Are you really a writer, socialite and television and radio personality?

And is your real name Lady Colin Cambell? :-)
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 25-Feb-2019 19:08 Message #4736125
I'll try and keep this simple and this is as I understand it and I maybe wrong, but, theres always been a deep streak of anti-semitism on the far left, oddly its one of the few things some on the hard left agree with the Far Right about and for the same reasons. All the tension in the Middle East has ramped things up a bit and Israel's getting het up about people, mainly Iran, saying it shouldn't exist and are now saying that being critical of Israel is the same as being anti-semitic. Obviously that makes it difficult for anyone wishing for a two state solution in Israel/Palestine. Corbyn's support for the Palestinian cause is being used as a stick to beat him with, but, many Jews who have traditionally been Labour supporters now feel betrayed as Corbyn isn't condemming the anti-semites in his own party loudly enough. I guess there are anti-semites in the Labour Party membership, anti semitism is fairly common afterall, these are not being stamped on hard enough and if they're in charge of a local party then under current rules its quite hard to dislodge them and they should be dislodged, there's no place for anti-semitism anywhere and least of all in a party that claims to champion the oppressed, dispossed and the abused. Of course MP's are all on twatter and people follow them and comment, often nastily, I think all MP's are comming under increasingly hostile social media threats and physical ones too, the anti-semitic stuff is just another layer of the general nastiness that you get in public life these days. You should be able to go about your life without threats to your life, without threats rape, kidnapping your children and burning your house down and your religious or ethnic background should have nothing to do with it.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 25-Feb-2019 19:26 Message #4736126
I think you are basically right WH.

In addition, one antisemite view is that being Jewish is not congruent with Labour policies because you don't see Jewish people in poverty. However, people who do that won't know Jewish people tend to be caring and integrate with other communities in helping others.

For example, In Altrincham, they welcomed local Muslin people to help them to provide for the homeless. However, near where I work, in very poor areas (Altrincham is an affluent area) is nearer where Jewish gravestones are being destroyed.

In my opinion, I do wonder if some of the abuse is "innocent", bad word, but I bet some people doing such damage are not even educated to know about The Holocaust. They also might be a lot of copycat crime, they see it on the News in passing, see abuse on Social Media, and get some kind of fix that Beach referred to in another thread about lifting their own self worth at the expense of someone else.

I am not stating facts, just thoughts on why Corbyn is at a loss to take the blame for everything antisemitic.
They can't be clever, because if they are Labour members, they are doing a good job of preventing a Labour Government and shooting themselves in the feet.
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 19:36 Message #4736129
Thank you, Hen.

I'm reading from your comments that it IS a social media thing then? I mean, it's not as if there is some inner circle in the actual Labour party conspiring to create a culture of "hate", I dislike using that word, to develop some actual policy to undermine certain sections of society?

Of course, as Raach has pointed out, it is, probably then, too complex a subject to be boiled down into simple, short, soundbites but … is the perceived problem the fact that Labour has struggled to find a means to halt the public expressions being radiated out on social media?

I heard Mr Corbyn today, (in the background while listening to LBC radio), and he was giving a live speech passionately explaining that his own mother was a champion of protecting the rights and views of certain sectors of society and that she, (it was inferred), was a public, vocal activist (in her day?) actually defending the rights of all sections of society, including the ones currently, allegedly being slighted in this current situation.

It seemed to me, (listening to Corbyn today), that, despite some folk doubting his intentions, he was clearly telling the world that such outlooks, such behaviour and such abhorrent views were entirely opposite to the views he, (and his mother), truly believe in.

Either he is being sincere (which is what it sounded like to me) OR he is (as his detractors might claim), merely trying to placate or pour oil on the troubled waters of the perception some feel … that Labour has, somehow, shifted from certain policies (or views) it had, previously held for 50+ years?

I'm not recognising the latter but … those Labour MPs who have recently left the party ARE suggesting something along those lines.

It is all a bit troubling though, isn't it?
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 20:02 Message #4736131
Thank you for your comments, JustLyn.

Not being a political animal, I don’t pursue or follow this kind of a topic normally and certainly don’t have the interest or knowledge to present myself here confidently as I usually do on the myriad of topics that do interest me so in that sense, I’m being (uncharacteristically) coy and passive on this subject.

And my naivety isn’t some act to set up some trap (or punchline) further down the thread!

I’m genuinely puzzled or confused as to where these allegations or fears have been incubated.

Hence my simplistic, straight forward question. :-)

I guess, JustLyn, the one line of your comment that caught my attention more than any other was;

"I am not stating facts, just thoughts on why Corbyn is at a loss to take the blame for everything antisemitic."

I don't understand the sentence.

"Everything anti-Semitic."

What does that sentence even mean?

Does it mean he is not able to stop social media abuse? (How could he?)

Does it mean there are things (initially) being said and done behind doors … though later being outed or leaked?

I'm looking, (though only casually), for "the smoking gun" of something or some culture or some belief system that seems to exist somewhere, (but WHERE?) within the fabric of these stories but, for the life of me, can't see anything tangible or visible to indicate to me that something ominous or dark is building or growing within either the Labour party, society or whatever.

I'd like to learn something tangible about the situation. Only trouble is … I don't think I have the mental capacity to seek answers out for myself … even if such answers were available to be found. :-(
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 25-Feb-2019 20:55 Message #4736142
I suspect Corbyn is at a loss as to where all the antisemitism is coming from. As a leader, he has to take the flack, and this didn't seem to arise under Blair. This only seems to have come about since the influx of new members but I can't know if there is an association, a cause and effect.

It might be that there are other moves afoot where some of this new influx (and I am one of the new influx) who have different agenda. We shouldn't all be lumped together as all having the same mindset.

I meant by everything antisemitic, a bit sarcastic, sorry, that Corbyn will be indicated as the cause of anything from anywhere, somehow he is behind it like some conspiracy theory.

I have seen abuse online, but usually, profiles are hidden, don't look authentic or they appear to be posing as someone else. I have seen more evidence of Conservatives trying to stop Corbyn getting in power and many who joined the Labour Party were not only suspected of this, but many admitted to it.

Maybe it is those who are leaving membership now. The 150,000 from what had grown to 560,000.

I think in reality it will be a selection of all groups.
There's those who want him out because he voted Remain and they don't want a soft Brexit so they leave.
There's those who are convinced he wants to leave the EU and he has got what he wanted so they too leave.
Anti-semitism.
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 25-Feb-2019 21:32 Message #4736147
So … those apposed to Mr Corbyn or the Labour party could be maliciously causing mischief and/or duplicitously claiming to be Labour supporters, (seeding online media with untruths?), from behind some anonymous screen name?

That almost brings us back to my other thread, doesn't it? (The one discussing Truth in the age of the internet).
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 25-Feb-2019 22:14 Message #4736152
I'm sure there is genuine anti-Semitism to a degree, wouldn't say it's all made up. Like most things it's unlikely to be just suddenly Labour members .
I guess you have to include looking for a motive.

There'll be some idiots who think it's fun, but I wonder if there's as many of those suddenly appearing to "support" Corbyn as there are those desperate to keep him out.
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 25-Feb-2019 22:52 Message #4736159
Son-of-a-Beach 25-Feb-2019 12:39

I’d like a simple explanation, (in a couple of sentences),
===
1) As the Israeli governing parties are pulled further and further to the Right by the Ultra-Orthodox Knesset members there is overwhelming pressure to define any critique of Zionism or disproportionate military actions by IDF as anti-semitic.

2) ANY sympathy expressed for the human rights for Palestinians and talk of a return to 1968 borders is to be classified as anti-semitic.

3) That Mark Regev - ??? ??? , the Far Right apologist for such as the murder of young Palestinian boys on a beach and 100s of other murders has been appointed to be Israeli Ambassador to the Court of St James to oversee this attack on the L P is no coincidence.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGahJzFdqaY&t=25s*

Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 26-Feb-2019 01:17 Message #4736166
Son-of-a-Beach 25-Feb-2019 12:39

I’d like a simple explanation, (in a couple of sentences),
===
1) As the Israeli governing parties are pulled further and further to the Right by the Ultra-Orthodox Knesset members there is overwhelming pressure to define any critique of Zionism or disproportionate military actions by IDF as anti-semitic.

2) ANY sympathy expressed for the human rights for Palestinians and talk of a return to 1968 borders is to be classified as anti-semitic.

3) That Mark Regev - ??? ??? , the Far Right apologist for such as the murder of young Palestinian boys on a beach and 100s of other murders has been appointed to be Israeli Ambassador to the Court of St James to oversee this attack on the L P is no coincidence.

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGahJzFdqaY&t=25s*
Female
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire 26-Feb-2019 09:05 Message #4736171
Well i did read the newd once on the tv !! lol

See didn't know that did you he he

Also my brother's name is Colin whose to say whether i am a Lady Colin Campell
Female
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire 26-Feb-2019 09:08 Message #4736172
Plus did go into a couple of beauty queen contest.lol



Full of surprises i am lol
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 26-Feb-2019 09:59 Message #4736175
Ha ha, Bunny,

I knew you had hidden talents! :-)
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 26-Feb-2019 11:34 Message #4736180
Its not just a social media thing, social media like any media gives a space for people gives their views and express their prejudices. I don't think there was the problem with anti-semitism in Blairs time because people like Neil Kinnock fought so hard to get rid of the sorts of people who espouse those views. Corbyn has let many of them back into the party, not only that but I think its his general lack of leadership ability thats allowinganti-semitism to take root in the Labour party again. I think that Corbyn is quite sincere on a personal level, but he fails to bring that sincerity to a party where there some who are using him as stooge for all sorts of nastiness, and because he dosen't it makes him look like he has no authority and certainly no moral authority. The left has a worrying tendency towards purges of anyone who dosen't 100% agree with the party line of the time, its all quite Pythonesque. I found the politics of the left to not be very welcoming to someone who came from a normal working family, the people they would like to liberate, I found that their idea of the working class to be very different to the people I'd grown up with. I looked at a lot of them and found just another bunch of people wanting to tell me how to live and Ye Gods, some of them were so humourless, you could crack the most politically correct and funny joke in the world and they'd still look at you like you'd dropped a turd in the middle of the carpet and unfortunately in my experience they were the ones who ended up running everything.
Male
The_Snow_Covered_Fool  Male  Cheshire 26-Feb-2019 13:41 Message #4736194
" This only seems to have come about since the influx of new members "

And what caused the sudden influx ?





Chris.
Female
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire 26-Feb-2019 21:05 Message #4736212
Hope you realise i am telling the truth lol
Male
OnlineMSE  Male  Essex 26-Feb-2019 21:40 Message #4736214
I thought it all stems from the 2013 video of Corbyn stating that a group of British Zionists had "no sense of English irony".
A former Chief Rabbi considered the comment as " the most offensive statement" by a politician since Enoch Powell's "River of Blood" speech and accused Corbyn of being an anti-semite.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 27-Feb-2019 10:49 Message #4736231
No even John Landsman, himself a Jew says that the Labour party has a problem with anit-semitism, you can read what he says in todays Guardian.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 27-Feb-2019 18:04 Message #4736247
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43539774

I was interested in doing a quick search on trying to source reasons that are increasingly blaming Labour for being antisemitic.
The above link gives a really good background in one article if anyone cares to speed read it.

I had found something from The Spectator and some others supporting the above article and I was really surprised to read ant-Semitism of late, is due to increasing support for Labour from the expanse of it's "demographics". More specifically this was started by a Muslim private secretary Naz Shah MP, to John McDonnell who did resign and apologised for comments she made on Twitter. From memory, I think this is where Ken Livingstone came out in her defence and then he became embroiled in terminology like Zionism and Naziism that some Jewish groups found inflammatory.

As WH refers to, there are also Jewish groups who disagree with anti_semitism being rife within Labour.

I cannot say I have seen anything antiSemitic towards anyone Jewish but I used to really like the ex Lead Rabbi Jonathan Sachs and enjoyed his frequent talks on Thoughts of the Day on Radio 4, as I did Rabbi Blue too. But when I listened to Sachs vociferous hatred towards Corbyn as MSEOnline refers to, I was in disbelief at his logic when comparing a careless comment to an equally vociferous Enoch Powell "Rivers of Blood" speech.

Another dodgy nail in the coffin on Corbyn on this subject was his very naive comment on a piece of art in a gallery that shows oppressive Jews on their hands and knees propping up a table. Corbyn stupidly said the art should stay on show. I got him straight away and expected the backlash because Corbyn was honest and did not give a politically correct answer to take the artwork down.

An analogy of the art and whether it should be taken down is down to opinion on a similar subject of famous figures in British history who we have since found be connected to the slave trade. Do we hide such art and figures from view, take them away, or do we keep them as a reminder to the abhorrent meaning they have become?
I believe, like me, that Corbyn referred to the latter and that is a million miles from being either anti-Semitic or racist?
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 2-Mar-2019 12:14 Message #4736378
Online MSE
"I thought it all stems from the 2013 video of Corbyn stating that a group of British Zionists had "no sense of English irony".
A former Chief Rabbi considered the comment as " the most offensive statement" by a politician since Enoch Powell's "River of Blood" speech and accused Corbyn of being an anti-semite. "

Spot on. Good old English irony. How offensive can you get. Pc gone all over the place.

Corbyn has enemies, so I guess do the Jews, but Palestinians are 'dying' I would hazard a guess that is the worst transgression. But, Israel is our bastion in the middle east, our nuclear force, so it's a rock and a hard place. Corbyn probably has a conscience and can see the suffering, and they don't like it.

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