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A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL

for all those who voted out

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Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Feb-2019 13:33 Message #4734611
That's what he said "all those who voted out, deserve a special place in hell"... what a nasty bit of work is Mr Donald Tusque. It seems to me that the Euro lot are getting extremely worried now. There are so many officials working for the EU, all on fat salaries and we are all still subsidising them. I wonder if they will offer us a refund of our contributions from the day we gave notice to leave. We have paid an awful lot of money into the EU since our decision to leave. It would have built more than few new hospitals. After all, its helped to build all those huge HQ buildings in Brussells, Luxemburg, Frankfurt & Strasbourg.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 6-Feb-2019 14:54 Message #4734616
Please quote Donald Tusk accurately before criticising what he said.

He tweeted "I've been wondering what that special place in hell looks like, for those who promoted #Brexit, without even a sketch of a plan how to carry it out safely."

I think it is essential to have a detailed plan on how to carry out a huge project safely. If not done satisfactorily, (and maybe even if it is done to the best of our ability), there can be major problems with food and medical supplies, industries, and the poor getting poorer. Whether or not they materialise remains to be seen (if Brexit happens). But it would be grossly irresponsible not to have detailed plans of what to do.

Or do you think it's OK to leave the EU without having such a "plan how to carry it out safely"?
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 6-Feb-2019 15:27 Message #4734622
Fair enough, Jeff, but Victoriana's quote doesn't need "quoting accurately" because, essentially, Tusk is, indeed, stating that he's been pondering "what that place in Hell looks like for that those who promoted Brexit", (without their sketches or plans) … if your own quote is correct and to be trusted.

I voted to leave and, to me, he is choosing to include me in his offensive ponderings … referring to the Hell he imagines I'll go to for promoting Brexit!

Donald Tusk, in his position as President of the European Council, should be acting more mature than that.

Invite him round mine.

I'd enlighten him of his folly … the good old fashioned way.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 6-Feb-2019 15:45 Message #4734624
The exact quote is important, because Victoriana grossly perverted what Donald Tusk said then tweeted. If you think that my quote is wrong, then please correct me. Admittedly I don't like his emotive language referring to hell, especially as Ireland is a religious Island that might not take such talk lightly.

I've just read a bit more and seen that it was in the context of a time limit of the backstop arrangement for Ireland.
Tusk said “There is no room for speculation here. The EU is first and foremost a peace project. We will not gamble with peace or put a sell-by date on reconciliation.”

I think that if we accept the Irish backstop idea for a limited time, and if we don't come up with a suitable plan for after that, then there is a risk of the Good Friday agreement breaking down, and Irish terrorism could start again. It could be partly funded by smuggling EU subsidised goods on a large scale. In that case terrorists would be primarily to blame, but the people who didn't come up with a suitable plan would be partly responsible.

I would welcome a practical plan in thread "Northern Ireland and EU The Solution" https://www.midsummerseve.com/fora/thread.aspx?threadid=191663&page=1.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Feb-2019 15:47 Message #4734625
Jeff, it was on the news at lunchtime... check it out...its there for all to see.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Feb-2019 15:57 Message #4734627
apologies for my mis spelling of Tusk
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Feb-2019 16:04 Message #4734628
This is what I heard on TV at lunchtime news.

"Brexiteers deserve a special place in hell for campaigning for Britain’s withdrawal from the EU with no plan on how to achieve it," one of Brussels’ most senior figures has said.

Donald Tusk’s explosive comments sparked a furious backlash from UK cabinet ministers and Downing Street at a crucial time for Theresa May, as she attempts to calm Tory Leavers’ opposition to her Brexit deal.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 6-Feb-2019 16:46 Message #4734631
No need to apologise for misspelling.

If that's what the TV news said, then they perverted what Tusk said and tweeted, unless someone can give an exact quote by him contradicting my quotes by him. I apologise for saying that you perverted it.

The word "Brexiteers" is ambiguous, as to whether it means everyone who voted for Brexit (you wrote "all those who voted out"), or those who led the Leave campaign, or those who are negotiating Brexit. Tusk tweeted "... for those who promoted #Brexit ...".
A "special place in hell" is a bit harsh! Not all consequences could be foreseen before the referendum. Perhaps the Irish problem could be foreseen, but I suspect it was dismissed or thought to be a minor problem.

I agree that Europe is getting worried. But not only because of their too-large salaries and too-expensive buildings. I think that Brexit will be bad for ordinary European people.
Female
Victoriana11  Female  Buckinghamshire 6-Feb-2019 17:34 Message #4734634
Jeff, if you go back on the TV - I forget what its called (Catch up perhaps). I am not ure if it was Sky or BBC1. You can watch Tusk and hear him saying it - like we did, at about 1-00oclock ish. I wss so surprised to hear it, and thats why I posted the thread.

V xx
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 6-Feb-2019 17:41 Message #4734635
I should imagine that any Country in Europe will look like hell in the future when it all implodes.

Seeing as its only the UK, Germany and France that put the bulk of the money into the EU when we are no longer paying the other 25 Countries will lose most of their subsidies and Germany and France will not want to pay any extra so will probably apply to leave as well.

We are getting out at the right time.
Male
Otb  Male  Dorset 6-Feb-2019 17:41 Message #4734636
I agree, Jeff, where you refer to Tusk's language as being 'emotive'.

Doesn't his reference to the EU being, first and foremost, a peace project, infer that he is, wittingly or unwittingly, placing some inflammatory theme within his mischievous comments?

I repeat; (in my humble view), that the President of the EU should not be weighting or framing such comments in such a way as to tip or lean his thoughts so negatively.

There is enough fear mongering, uncertainty and anxiety being manifest as a result of all sides throwing in their two penneth without the President of the EU acting in such a fashion.

My, (main) point is that Tusk, holding the position he holds, should, (rather), be oiling the mechanisms of negotiation, (in as neutral or conciliatory a manner as his position warrants), not be attempting to ignite such oil into some additional inferno.

Sure. EU personnel, generally, don't wish to see Brexit executed fully, (or on time), but referencing "the fires of hell" in whatever manner it is expressed, does nothing to help … other than add further layers of discourse to an, already, fraught process of negotiations.
Male
tsunamiwarrior  Male  Hertfordshire 6-Feb-2019 17:50 Message #4734637
As it appears nobody anywhere ever had an exit plan it seems likely that when we leave we will all be in some kind of hell however we voted. A lesson for the future and for any other country thinking of leaving.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 6-Feb-2019 17:55 Message #4734638
All irrelevant, another arrogant comment from Tusk.
Even remainers must be persisted with him.
Female
justfem  Female  Cambridgeshire 6-Feb-2019 18:00 Message #4734639
IMHO it's unprofessional make any opinionated tweet whatsoever. Mind you bureaucrats the world over appear to be dragged into the twittersphere.

Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 6-Feb-2019 18:06 Message #4734640
With Tusk it is the realization that the EU is all but finished.
Where does the cash come from when the UK leaves.
Lets not forget that the EU already, all but bankrupted some EU countries.
I do not remember Tusk being any good with the Polish economy.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 6-Feb-2019 18:50 Message #4734643
The quote I saw he said he wondered what the special place in hell looked like for those British politicians who led the Brexit campaign without a scrap of a plan for how it could or would be achieved, rather than the electorate who voted leave.

I don't think thats entirely fair to the Brexit supporting politicians, who seemed to have plenty of ideas among them, they just didn't seem to agree with each other about what should happen and none of them were in a position to make the electorate promises as none of them were a part of government or a government in waiting. I think it was insanity to invoke article 50 with no plan, knowing that there was a time limit to negotiations which has left us in the current mess, that is entirely the fault of May and her cabinet.

I didn't think it was the right thing for him to say, even if its what he thinks privately.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 6-Feb-2019 19:16 Message #4734646
Victoriana,

I couldn't get the news bulletins that you suggested. But the following videos of Tusk talking and showing his tweet all confirm what I quoted.
BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47143135 That also says "Brussels officials were quick to clarify Mr Tusk's remarks, stressing to BBC correspondent Adam Fleming that the Brexiteers' special place in hell would be for when they are dead and "not right now"."
Sky News: https://news.sky.com/story/eus-tusk-sparks-row-for-special-place-in-hell-attack-on-no-plan-brexit-campaigners-11629719
The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/feb/06/special-place-in-hell-donald-tusk-derides-brexiters-without-a-plan-video
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-Dx4Rnl5Og is from The Guardian.
The Irish Times: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/a-special-place-in-hell-tusk-on-brexit-promoters-1.3784061
Belfast Telegraph: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-news/donald-tusk-there-is-a-special-place-in-hell-for-brexiteers-without-a-plan-37788357.html
And so on.

If anyone can find a video or tweet in which Tusk talks about a place in hell for other Brexiteers, then please post the link.

It is fair enough for commentators to criticise what he said, but maybe any journalist who deliberately perverts an important few sentences deserves a place in hell! (Joke!)


Son-of-a-Beach,

One of the motivations for creating the EU was to try to secure peace in Europe. In 2012 the EU received the Nobel peace prize because "The union and its forerunners have for over six decades contributed to the advancement of peace and reconciliation, democracy and human rights in Europe" (https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/2012/press-release/), and gave double the award to children affected by conflicts. Numerous people before Tusk have referred to peace in Ireland. So there was nothing wrong with him mentioning peace.

I agree that his use of the word "hell" was inflammatory, because hell is flaming awful, although he didn't mention "fires". It was unhelpful and possibly counterproductive.

As for his role, the EU website https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/presidents_en says that the European Council president's (Tusk) role is:
"Leads the European Council's work in setting the EU's general political direction and priorities – in cooperation with the Commission
Promotes cohesion and consensus within the European Council
Represents the EU externally on foreign and security issues"



NotHermit,

In 2017 the EU budget included commitments 157.86 billion and payments 134.49 billion. I don't know much about this, but I think that losing the UK's contribution (in 2017 £9 billion minus money that it gives to UK research grants and to other UK private sector projects) will not cause the EU funding to collapse.
(UK figures are from thread "Who to blame if Brexit produces bad results for the UK?" https://www.midsummerseve.com/fora/thread.aspx?threadid=191635&page=2 on 05-Feb-18 at 22:57.)

In 2001 Greece joined the Euro when it was not in a financial position to do so.
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 6-Feb-2019 19:40 Message #4734647
What Beach said at 17.41 saved me the typing.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 6-Feb-2019 21:13 Message #4734664
NotHermit,

Wikipedia on the economy of Poland includes "The economy of Poland is the eighth largest economy in the European Union and the largest among the former Eastern Bloc members of the European Union. ... In all, as of 2017 the Polish economy has been growing steadily for the past 26 years, a record high in the EU. Such growth has been exponential, with GDP per capita at purchasing power parity growing on average by 6% p.a. over the last 20 years, the most impressive performance in Central Europe resulting in the country doubling its GDP since 1990. Poland is classified as high-income economy by World Bank ... According to the Central Statistical Office of Poland, in 2010 the Polish economic growth rate was 3.7%, which was one of the best results in Europe. ... [In 2017] The Polish market has been upgraded from an emerging market to developed market status."

So Poland is doing very well in the EU.


Sorry that my posts have so many quotes, but I prefer those rather than distortions.
Male
SQL  Male  Devon 6-Feb-2019 22:00 Message #4734675
I think it's Tusk throwing a tantrum because he (and the EU) can't get their way over the UK leaving, he's deliberately sparking controversy as it's dawning that his power has been thwarted. Another big-headed bureaucrat living of the fat of the EU (and partly our money).

He doesn't like democracy, none of the EU hierarchy believe in democracy. If any country within the EU ever votes not to agree one of the major treaties then that country is virtually forced to re-run the vote after a suitable 'education' intervention by Brussels.

It is also reported that Tusk said "The EU is first and foremost a peace project." which is completely WRONG as the EU started out as the European Iron & Steel community - a trading community. NATO was formed before the European Iron & Steel project was agreed.

SQL
Male
Good2BWith  Male  West Yorkshire 9-Feb-2019 03:28 Message #4734876
SQL Devon 6-Feb-2019 22:00 Message #4734675
I think it's Tusk throwing a tantrum because he (and the EU) can't get their way over the UK leaving, he's deliberately sparking controversy as it's dawning that his power has been thwarted.
---
WDR, you're looking down the wrong end of the telescope.
- UK has decided to leave the EU 'Club'
- When we were members we set up a # of post-dated cheques and Standing orders to pay for projects that we had co-sponsored
- Out of no-where, UK walked out of the club announcing that for no apparent reason, we'd decided to resign.
- The Committee got together, discussed what was to be done and appointed Mr Tusk to clear the mess up abiding by the mandate the 27 had given to him
- The 27 then got on with running the largest and most successful trading club known in world history.
- Having stalked off, UK then started shouting thru' the Clubhouse letter box threatening to stop their legally binding due payments.
- Mr Tusk sent a note saying Let's talk
-UK stamped its foot and said that if it didn't get its way it would "... thcream and thcream until I'm thick. I can!"
- The 27 sat inside, and along with the rest of the world, were heard to say "Sic Transit Gloria Britannia"
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 9-Feb-2019 13:55 Message #4734900
Tusk also moaned about not being able to carry out Brexit safely.
What exactly does he mean by this?
I assume he means from an EU viewpoint.

Jeff you quoted the wrong figures, the only figure that matters is the total amount taken by countries that benefit financially from EU contributions. You take the 9plus billion (UK contribution out of that). It becomes quite a significant amount.

Good2B.
Why do you hate your own country so much?
Thought you went after quoting non stories?
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 12-Feb-2019 21:45 Message #4735138
NotHermit,

"Tusk also moaned about not being able to carry out Brexit safely. What exactly does he mean by this?"

Here are some safety concerns for the UK:-

a. Concerns by many parties about the border in Northern Ireland, with possible future terrorism (maybe partly funded by smuggling). This is unsafe. I hope you soon suggest a practical solution in thread "Northern Ireland and EU The Solution?".

b. There could be less co-operation between UK and EU law enforcement agencies, such as Europol which helps EU states against terrorism, and serious international crime such as illicit drug trafficking, money laundering, cybercrime, human trafficking, and intellectual property crime. So it will be more difficult to catch and prosecute international criminals We could lose access to Schengen Information System II, (a huge database about terrorists, criminals, missing persons and items), which British officers accessed 539 million times in 2017.
In August 2917 a leaked letter from the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners cross-party Brexit working group (after consulting the National Crime Agency and the National Police Chiefs’ Council) said that a no-deal Brexit would cause "a significant loss of operational capacity ... could pose significant risks to our local communities. ... Considerable additional resource would be required for policing to operate using non-EU tools and that such tools would be suboptimal – potentially putting operational efficiency and public safety at risk."
In November 2018 the National Police Chiefs’ Council said it would have to revert to “slower, more bureaucratic and less effective” tools.
This is unsafe.

c. Possible shortages of medicines and other health supplies in the UK. This is unsafe.

d. We are likely to lose access to the European Chemicals Agency and its database of Registration, Evaluation, Authorisation and Restriction of Chemicals (REACH). In November 2018 the Lords reported that the UK chemicals industry was "facing a huge cliff edge" and preparations for regulating chemicals after Brexit “are not progressing quickly enough, risking human and environmental health and with potentially severe consequences for the chemicals sector”. This is unsafe.

e. Possible shortages of food in the UK. This is unsafe.

f. In late November 2018 the Bank of England and the Chancellor of the Exchequer forecast that Brexit will almost certainly make the UK poorer, although the amount is subject to future agreements and events. A poorer country can't afford such good public services, such as health, social services and police. The poorest people will probably suffer the most. This is unsafe.


"Jeff you quoted the wrong figures, the only figure that matters is the total amount taken by countries that benefit financially from EU contributions. You take the 9plus billion (UK contribution out of that)"

I wrote "I think that losing the UK's contribution (in 2017 £9 billion minus money that it gives to UK research grants and to other UK private sector projects) will not cause the EU funding to collapse."

I don't know the total the UK received in 2017 or 2018. But I think that by not being in the EU there will be huge financial costs (I don't know how much), and we will be poorer (see f above). And although EU will be worse off without our membership, it will manage without our contributions.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 12-Feb-2019 23:07 Message #4735141
Its not just the direct contributions Jeff.
Its the trading surplus too, the EU can not afford to lose this surplus.
Though personally I believe they will struggle without direct contributions from the UK.
The 9 billion is the net total after money returned to the UK, grants etc.
I think its a little more, though EU accounts are not easy to check.
Wait and see, the EU will struggle, which is why Tusk is worried.
Do not worry about food shortages.
Warmiedeft has already told us he will have loads of broccoli.
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 13-Feb-2019 00:47 Message #4735151
George Soros is now saying the if the EU does not change their ways they are doomed. Fat chance of that.

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