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Who to blame

if Brexit produces bad results for the UK?

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Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 21-Jan-2019 11:37 Message #4733762
If Brexit happens, and if its results are bad for the UK, then who will we blame, and who should we blame?

a. David Cameron?
b. The people who voted for Brexit?
c. Theresa May?
d. The Conservative party?
e. Jeremy Corbyn?
f. The Labour party?
g. Parliament as a whole?
h. Michel Barnier (chief negotiator) & Donald Tusk & Jean-Claude Juncker et al?
i. Emmanuel Macron & Angela Merkel et al?
j. People who might cause strife in Northern Ireland?
k. Heads of industry and traders?
l. The financial markets?
m. Other than the above?
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 21-Jan-2019 11:41 Message #4733763
Does there have to be someone to blame?...
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 21-Jan-2019 12:01 Message #4733764
I don't think any individual is to blame.

Collectively, and listening to interviews on some people who voted Leave, they wanted to make Britain great again and seem to have single, but not all the same issues on why they want that. Some of it seems to be related to their impression of the British Empire without the negative things attached to that.

If you interview a fisherman they want their waters back.

If you interview an individual wanting a job in Sunderland, they want to stop immigration and don't necessarily associate Asia is not in Europe.

If people hate Corbyn, somehow he did it by not leading May into being more proactive.

Some wanted Leave because they see Juncker et al as having too much power.

Others voted Leave because they misread the bus stating £350b more available to spend on NHS.

All, and more of the above ticked to Leave for all different reasons.


My view,


If Brexit happens - vote in a Government that will turn Britain into a compassionate and world leader in environmental, innovative employment, housing, etc by investing in services and putting the profit back into social enterprise or not for profit enterprises with a voice outside Europe.


If Brexit doesn't happen, same answer as above but also have a voice from within Europe.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 21-Jan-2019 12:07 Message #4733765
And if the country does well who will we praise?...
Male
tumbleweed  Male  Gloucestershire 21-Jan-2019 12:09 Message #4733766
Me, cos I must have done something to cause it, Bernard Manning, Hitler, that's an easy one, although at least he ridded the world of Hitler, so he wasn't all bad, Trump, Nixon, Pol Pot, creator of the Pot noodle, the bloke who invented traffic cones, causing miles and miles of tailbacks, a nasty psycho waster who lives nearby, cos I hate the dickbrain, and anyone else who annoys me.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 21-Jan-2019 12:20 Message #4733767
I think we all should take collective responsibility and ownership whatever the outcome - the reason we are in such a mess is because we are looking for someone to pin it on...
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 21-Jan-2019 12:57 Message #4733768
Hierophant, I agree with both your posts!

LOL
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 21-Jan-2019 12:58 Message #4733769
Hierophant, I agree with both your posts!

LOL
Male
tumbleweed  Male  Gloucestershire 21-Jan-2019 13:21 Message #4733771
On a more serious note than my last post, I have said all along that everyone needs to make it work. Everyone.

But my comments have sometimes been derided, and 'passing the buck' type comments and 'you brexiters got us into this mess, you get us out of it' type rubbish.

I have mentioned spanners many times. I am fed up of mentioning them now. Oh, go on then, just one more time. Would all the biased remainers stop throwing their bleeding spanners in the works, grow up, and help make it work. It can be done and will be done, if we all allow it.

Chances of that though are pretty rubbish. Look where we are at the moment. A laughing stock. More than that, a laughing stock cubed.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 21-Jan-2019 13:57 Message #4733773
I agree that in or out we need a good government to take us forward however if we get rid of this one it only leaves LibDems or perhaps a revived UKIP, Greens? First we need an opposition party high would be a viable alternative.

With regards to spanners I think those wanting leave have buried themselves under a big heap of them. They should have spent the past couple of years explaining in detail the advantages to leaving the eu. Instead they just repeat the same old rhetoric.

If we leave and it goes pear shaped then I will have to plead guilty and shoulder some responsibility for voting leave because without me and others like me we would remain. However I expect the accolades when it is a great success.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 21-Jan-2019 17:00 Message #4733781
I voted for LibDem at previous general elections and if it hadn't of been for the killing of Nick Clegg, over his student loan catastrophe he would have been a good leader. I still think he is, but in the heavy student population of Sheffield, he got understandably ousted. I even like Vince Cable, in fact I've really liked and trusted most of them. I often used to say how when listening to them, they often talked my language. It was terribly sad that we lost Charles Kennedy due to his alcohol history and life battle dealing with that. I also never heard a bad word from Paddy Ashdown. Give me any of them back, but I'm afraid Cable just sounds desperate now and keeping the ball rolling for a suitable takeover from what is now such a small membership and MP. I really don't think they will be a viable Government in the near future.


I have also voted Green, several times. I noticed the hug on TV between Corbyn and Caroline Lucas after the hustings during the last general election. They share a lot of common ground and why they did a vote swap agreement to keep the Conservatives out, and almost made it.

With regard to spanners, with hindsight, we should have had all this discussion first but I don't think Cameron was insightful or cared enough to envisage such a mess.


I am an optimist, I don't think it has to go pear-shaped remain or leave. I just want radical change even if it means throwing all the cards up in the air and seeing where they land.
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 21-Jan-2019 22:57 Message #4733804
I honestly don't know, on either question. Personally I won't blame anyone and don't think I should blame anyone, we were given a choice, we made our choice...job done.

Whether we should have been told more of what that choice involved, or whether we should have realised more of what that choice involved before choosing...that would have been usefull. I mean, if they had said leaving would involve all that it has so far, would the leavers have voted leave? again, I don't know. Either way, to me it's a numbers game and so long as the numbers haven't been fiddled I'll accept what the majority want - whether that be a majority of 1 or 1000 - meaning I have no one to blame other than myself.

Many posts on here from various threads have given different views, however I suspect and hope all those posters want much the same, a better society for us all, dragging over the past won't achieve that, working together for a better future will.

Bloody hell, I sound like a flippin' politician! bring me paracetamol, I have a headache.
Male
Son-of-a-Beach  Male  Dorset 22-Jan-2019 01:17 Message #4733808
In nature, periodically, cataclysmic events occur and they profoundly reformat and reshape the world, extinguishing certain species, reshaping particular continents or acting as a catalyst to enable new forms of life to evolve. (We mammals should thank the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs, allowing us to take over).

Think of a successful Brexit exit as a cleansing event, a means of enabling dear old BlightyXP to reformat its hard drive and install some brand new, up to date, operating system in its place.

And if the above analogy doesn’t grip you, instead just look at our government (and parliament) and admit that we are now witnessing and observing the reality of the peeling veneer that our current establishment represents.

As long as the chemist can still maintain the stocks of pills that keep me alive I’ll be happy. Otherwise, I imagine, I’ll be part of the next great extinction.

I guess I blame Cameron … for not building the correct foundations the referendum was built upon.
Male
The_Snow_Covered_Fool  Male  Cheshire 22-Jan-2019 07:05 Message #4733809
The main protagonists in whole mess at the moment are the MP's ... of all parties.

They are completely ignoring what the country voted for, they are following their own feeling on Brexit and not the country's.
It's about time they remembered they where put in a position of ' Power' to represent us not them.





Chris.

Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 22-Jan-2019 18:19 Message #4733838
I don't think the MPs can be completely anything in representing their constituents, and the country didn't all vote for the same thing either.


When I listen to interviews of Brexiteers, they all have varying categories for their rationale for voting. I think too much assumption is made, where one has a particular view, that everyone who voted the same, had the same reasons.


I didn't care if we had a people's vote or not, but I do think now people have had time to think about it more, it would be good to have a second chance. Short on causing more division, which isn't impossible, it would be really interesting to see if there has been any swing either way. If the Leave vote was the outcome a second time, I think there would be less opportunity to argue about it.


Some groups are going to feel ignored whichever way we go. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time?
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 22-Jan-2019 18:19 Message #4733839
I don't think the MPs can be completely anything in representing their constituents, and the country didn't all vote for the same thing either.


When I listen to interviews of Brexiteers, they all have varying categories for their rationale for voting. I think too much assumption is made, where one has a particular view, that everyone who voted the same, had the same reasons.


I didn't care if we had a people's vote or not, but I do think now people have had time to think about it more, it would be good to have a second chance. Short on causing more division, which isn't impossible, it would be really interesting to see if there has been any swing either way. If the Leave vote was the outcome a second time, I think there would be less opportunity to argue about it.


Some groups are going to feel ignored whichever way we go. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time?
Male
The_Snow_Covered_Fool  Male  Cheshire 24-Jan-2019 07:38 Message #4733945
' I don't think the MPs can be completely anything in representing their constituents, and the country didn't all vote for the same thing either. '

No, they can't be because they put the party first ... following the whip rather than the people !





Chris.
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire 24-Jan-2019 08:00 Message #4733948
I would suspect that when the nation voted for in or out, most of the electorate thought it would be a simple case of telling the EU to go stuff itself, a simple case of signing a paper that said we are no longer in your gang. I would also guess very few of the electorate expected all this hoo ha that's been going on. Maybe I'm wrongly assuming that most of the electorate have, like me, a simplistic view of society and it's machinations. So whilst still sticking to my original view that I am myself to blame, the next one in line would be David Cameron for not explaining to the electorate what would be involved, or as much as he could have, and please don't say they did, all the pushing and shoving and talking and shouting was simply personal point scoring for greedy businessmen and politicians...how much did the country (private and public) spend on all the 'electioneering'?
We were, and still are, being had for the bunch of numpties we are.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 24-Jan-2019 12:10 Message #4733970
Project Fear and Project It will be Easy to get Deal are to blame for any confusion in the electorate, they over simplified something very complex.

The problem as someone else has already pointed out is the disconnect between voters and party, we have a representative system, for MP's to soley go with the wishes of their constituents we need a delegate system which is something else entirely.
Male
deano927  Male  Hampshire 24-Jan-2019 13:41 Message #4733988
I'm a brexiteer and remain confident that we will thrive outside of the EU. So for me, there'll be no blame to aportion.
Given the choice, I would prefer we left with a good deal - by that I mean outside of the single market, but I'm not agaibsg some kind of limited customs union arrangement with the EU provided we are still.in a position to trade with the rest of the world. I want to see an end to Freedom of movement and instead have controlled immigration - perhaps a points system, plus a complete severance from the ECJ.

As I said, under those conditions I truly believe we will prosper.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 31-Jan-2019 21:33 Message #4734327
Thank you for your views. I'll comment on some of them, then wait a bit, before giving my answer to the opening question.


1. Hierophant: "Does there have to be someone to blame?"

Yes, if bad results were foreseen with good reasons and high probability, and people dismissed them without proper investigation.


2. Justlyn: "I don't think any individual is to blame."

Jereemy Corbyn should have stated his position much louder and clearer during the referendum campaign, and since then he has evaded important questions.


3. Justlyn: "All, and more of the above ticked to Leave for all different reasons."

You have given some good examples of reasons. I would also add corruption of some MEPs and EU rules and accounts.


4. Justlyn: "Others voted Leave because they misread the bus stating £350b more available to spend on NHS."

The message on the bus said "We send the EU £350m a week - let's fund our NHS instead". It was very clear and it wasn't misread. But it omitted how much we receive from the EU, so it amounted to a downright lie. In view of the many warnings from industry leaders, I think that if Brexit proceeds then our economy will greatly suffer, and I suspect that we might have to spend less on the NHS than current forecasts.
An October 2018 Ipsos MORI study found that 42% of voters still believe that the bus stated the truth, 36% still believe that it was false, and 22% are unsure, In 2017 Vote Leave Campaign Director Dominic Cummings said “all our research and the close result strongly suggests” that Remain would have won without the advert. “It was clearly the most effective argument, not only with the crucial swing [vote] but with almost every demographic.”


5. Hierophant: "And if the country does well who will we praise?"

A good question. But in general (not just Brexit), the people rescues people from any bad situation are not necessarily the same people who caused that situation. For example, if the results are bad then we might blame Brexiteers, but if the results are good then we might praise industry leaders.


6. Hierophant: "I think we all should take collective responsibility and ownership whatever the outcome - the reason we are in such a mess is because we are looking for someone to pin it on"

Responsibility for what is ambiguous. Similarly ownership.
(a) If group A votes for X and group B votes against X, then if X wins, I think that group A is responsible for the win, and person B is not responsible for losing. (It could be complicated if one group doesn't try hard or one group tells lies, etc.)
(b) Whatever the outcome, in the interests of society, group A and group B are both responsible to try to make it work as well as possible.

In some situations it is appropriate to pin blame on a person or group, in other situations it is not appropriate.
We could be in such a mess for a number of reasons - for example:-
- One group deliberately telling lies (e.g. on a bus), and the other group not checking and revealing them and persuading the public that they are lies;
- one group telling the truth, and the other group persuading the public that they are lies (e.g. the often repeated "Project Fear" slogan).
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 31-Jan-2019 21:37 Message #4734329
7. Tumbleweed: "everyone needs to make it work. Everyone.".

I would phrase it as "everyone needs to try to make it work. Everyone."


8. Tumbleweed: "It can be done and will be done, if we all allow it."

I'm far from convinced of that. So I agree "Chances of that though are pretty rubbish." But I hope I'm wrong. (As I hope that many of my fears about Brexit are wrong.)


9. MrQuiet: "If we leave and it goes pear shaped then I will have to plead guilty and shoulder some responsibility for voting leave"

An excellent attitude - unless you were misled into voting leave, and didn't have enough time or facilities to check.


10. MrQuiet: "However I expect the accolades when it is a great success."

See section 5 above.


11. Justlyn: "I don't think Cameron was insightful or cared enough to envisage such a mess."

Views about the EU didn't only split the Conservative Party. They also split the labout party and the country as a whole.
Not everything can be foreseen.
I think that Cameron was advised until a late stage that Remain would win.
It could be seen long ago that Corbyn would oppose any deal made by Conservatives, so that he would try to get a General Election.


12. Terry "I won't blame anyone and don't think I should blame anyone, we were given a choice, we made our choice ... I have no one to blame other than myself.

See section 6 above.


13. Terry "if they had said leaving would involve all that it has so far, would the leavers have voted leave?"

I think that for more Leavers would now vote to Remain, than Remainers would now vote to Leave, and that a second referendum would produce a majority to Remain.
Also see section 4 above.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 31-Jan-2019 21:42 Message #4734330
14. Son-of-a-Beach: "I blame Cameron … for not building the correct foundations the referendum was built upon"

What foundations should Cameron have built/laid?
The referendum question was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?" (as recommended by The Electoral Commission, which claims to be independent). Was it badly worded, and if so then what should it have been?


15. The_Snow_Covered_Fool: "the MP's ... of all parties. They are completely ignoring what the country voted for, they are following their own feeling on Brexit and not the country's ... they where put in a position of ' Power' to represent us not them"

In a survey of MPs' voting intentions before the referendum, 480 said Remain, (including 184 Conservatives and 218 Labours), 159 said Leave (including 139 Conservatives and 11 Labours), and 11 were undeclared. So a majority of MPs of each main party wanted to Remain. After the Referendum most agreed to go with the Referendum result to Leave. So they are not completely ignoring what the country voted for.
MPs are representatives, not delegates. So they don't have to vote the same way as their constituents.
They said that they would go along with the referendum. But some are having other thoughts in view of what has been found after the referendum.


16. Justlyn: "I do think now people have had time to think about it more, it would be good to have a second chance."

It isn't just thinking about it more. We didn't know what kind of a deal Theresa May would arrive at. We didn't know the bad things that many industry leaders are predicting. Perhaps there will be more clarity in exposing lies. Surely it is good to vote on the basis of the current state of knowledge and expectations.


17. Justlyn: "If the Leave vote was the outcome a second time, I think there would be less opportunity to argue about it."

In view of current increased knowledge and more realistic expectations, I think that whichever side wins a second referendum should be accepted without argument.


18. "they put the party first ... following the whip rather than the people !"

I dislike the party system.


19. WH: "Project Fear and Project It will be Easy to get Deal are to blame for any confusion in the electorate"

Many statements of "Project Fear" were false without thorough investigation, but it was a fantastically successful slogan.
Perhaps the electorate didn't consider enough that it takes too sides to make a deal.


20. Deano927: "under those conditions I truly believe we will prosper."

But would we get a deal with those conditions? I think not.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 31-Jan-2019 22:47 Message #4734336
What I don't understand is, we are told Theresa May is a staunch remainer in reality, yet we are also told she is steering the country to a devastating "no deal" brexit. Something doesn't add up...
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 31-Jan-2019 22:50 Message #4734337
"We send the EU £350m a week - let's fund our NHS instead"

Does not state £350m a week will be spent entirely on the NHS but the crafty wording I could understand would appeal to those who want to read it that way. It actually states we'll spend some of the £350m on the NHS and that would not be lying if they spent an extra 1p as that would be from the £350m.

The NHS needs restructuring, throwing money into a bottomless badly run pit won't cure it. The money would just disappear, neither will it help to attach satellites of privatisation.

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