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Secrets of the Vatican Library

What secrets?

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wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
1-Jan-2018 11:25 Message #4708599
I suspect there are none or very few, the whole thing seems to be predicated on the idea that the was some mass conpiracy from early times and I don't believe there was, probably the nearest thing is the Pseudo Isidore and even that has roots in earlier misunderstandings. The papacy and western Christianity is almost entirely a construct of Charlemagne and his his Carolingian sucessors, the papacy didn't have the power it had in later years until well into 12th centuary, before then it was more concerned with more local Latin issues and occupied a position more like that of vice president, trotted out for ceremonial functions but subordinate to the real rulers, in this case medieval kings.

Let the spat begin...! lol
brisinger  Male  Lancashire
1-Jan-2018 13:19 Message #4708608
To coin another thread... where have all the erudites gone? ;-)
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon
1-Jan-2018 14:07 Message #4708619
Enter the Spanish Inquisition...

Bet no-one expected that! ;-)
wholelottakaren  Female  Lincolnshire
1-Jan-2018 16:11 Message #4708628
so long as I dont get the comfy chair
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire
1-Jan-2018 20:04 Message #4708644
Each of the old and new testaments is but a selection of possible writings that could be regarded as 'biblical' - as Christian sects evolved over the years their choice of what was included in their bibles was also modified so I reckon that some of these original texts (or verified copies of them) are lodged in the Vatican's libraries.

wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
2-Jan-2018 11:38 Message #4708671
There maybe some texts but I'm not sure to be honest, so much of modern Chrisitainity is an invention of the Carolingians and the not so holy, Holy Roman Empire. I don't think there are any verified copies, but there may be some different translations, what we think of as Latin now was also an invention of the Carolingians who codified and cobbled together how they thought it should be. Don't forget that what we know as Romance languages of French, Italian and Spanish were developing from local forms of Latin at this time too, what would be interesting is if any manuscripts in Greek from the early Chrisitan period still exist. Greek was the language of the early church and what we know of as the bible was translated to Latin from Greek, so not only do you have the problem of which form of Latin, but how good was the translation, Latin changed over the centuries as do all languages, the language of Cicero wasn't the same as that of the late antiquity or at least not in its spoken form. In its written form it remained largely unchanged from early Imperial to the fall, but after the fall teaching of classical Latin fell out of practice and over the centuries before the Carolingian renaissance.
Aely  Female  Hampshire
3-Jan-2018 17:26 Message #4708762 might be of interest to you WH.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Jan-2018 16:38 Message #4708841
1. Correspondence between Pope Pius XII and Hitler.

2. Correspondence after World War II about getting Nazi war criminals to South America.

3. I strongly recommend the book "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by M.Baigent & R.Leigh. You can download it as a PDF file from websites free of charge.
It is expressed non-emotionally, and is full of details about how the Catholic team has suppressed publication of them for about 60 years. Some in the team explicitly stated that they are restricted by ensuring that the scrolls agree with Catholic doctrine, and they won't let very highly qualified independent experts examine them fully. This makes one very strongly suspect that scrolls provide evidence that conflicts with Catholic doctrine.
(Even though Baigent & Leigh weren't always honest in their part in "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail", and there might be some errors, I find most of it convincing.)

4. I also read a book (I can't remember its title) detailing obstacles that the Catholic church put in the way of independent examinations of the Turin Shroud and swapping test samples of it.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Jan-2018 20:07 Message #4708859
I've just found my book mentioned in section 4 above. It is "The Jesus Conspiracy The Turin Shroud & The Truth About the Resurrection" by Holger Kersten & Elmar R.Gruber (1994-95). Although parts of the book are speculation and very possibly untrue, I think that Kersten's personal account of his problems with the Catholic guardians of the shroud is generally true.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Jan-2018 22:05 Message #4708867
Over the years the Vatican has had very bad popes (Stephen VII, Urban II, Gregory IX, Sixtus IV, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI, Leo X, Paul III, Julius III, Pious XII) whose details are well known but the Vatican possibly still keeps secret some details of them and other bad popes.

In 1517 Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation with his criticisms of Catholic financial corruptions. A much more recent famous case involves Roberto Calvi ("God's Banker"), chairman of Banco Ambrosiano whose main shareholder was the Vatican Bank, and you may remember that in 1982 he was found hanged under Blackfriars Bridge. The Vatican has many more financial scandals, and I suspect that its library keeps many of them secret.

In the past I have seen that the Vatican gave ridiculous underestimates of the worth of its churches and property and treasures, so as to tremendously reduce tax payments. According to The Incredible Book of Vatican Facts and Papal Curiosities by Nino Lo Bello, correspondence in Vatican City on 11-Jul-03 included:-
""The Vatican's real estate is worth about 700 million euro ($1.21 billion), not including its priceless art treasures, (according to) Ivan Ruggiero, the Holy See's chief accountant.
Of course, the value of the real estate holding was calculated without taking into account its real value on the market," Ruggiero said. And of course, the vast artistic holding of the "Holy See" was not taken into account, since it is a priceless and non-commercial holding," he added. (Because of it being "priceless, the value of the art treasures has been listed as "One Euro").
St Peter's Basilica ranks in the latter category, beyond market values."

Some years ago I visited the Vatican and its terrific museum, and although I'm not a valuations expert, I can assure you that its treasures are worth more than one Euro!
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Jan-2018 23:41 Message #4708870
You might also remember Pope John Paul I (Albino Luciani). In 1978 some of the cardinals who elected him called him "God's candidate" and Mother Theresa said "He has been the greatest gift of God, a sun beam of God's love shining in the darkness of the world". But God took back his gift and extinguished the sun beam just 33 days after his election!

When Patriarch of Venice Luciani lived in a relatively small apartment and converted most of the patriarch palace to house unmarried mothers.
As Pope John Paul I in the Vatican, in 1978 he said to a public audience "this morning, I flushed my toilet with a solid gold lever edged with diamonds and at this very moment, bishops and cardinals are using a bathroom on the second floor of the papal palace which trappings, I am told, would draw more than fifty million dollars at auction". He asked for valuations of some church property, and he might have been prepared to sell it to help the poor. He halved the large bonus to be paid to cardinals after the election.
All of this made him unpopular with some of the senior clergy.

Over the years I have seen many articles saying that there are strong suspicions that he was murdered.

Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Jan-2018 23:43 Message #4708871

Many interesting details about Pope Jean Paul I and other possibly murdered liberal church leaders are in including false statements by the Vatican about his death.

I quote part of that website which is very relevant to this OP: "Secrets of the Vatican Library What secrets?"

"- When popes take office, they are required to file their last will and testament with the Vatican. What can explain the disappearance of the Vatican copy and the theft of the copy from the pope's attorney's office?
- Why did Vatican officials collect all of the personal papers and records from the dioceses where he had been a bishop and priest and hide them somewhere in the Vatican, when it is known that his last will was that they stay in those places and be made public?
- Why does this pope's tombstone at the Vatican have nothing but his name? (The least that every other pope's stone has is name and dates of papacy.)
- Why is there no official biography of Pope John Paul the First?
- Why has the Vatican tried to portray Pope John Paul the First as a traditionalist, after hiding as much of his actual ideology, when the record the Vatican has not been able to hide shows that he was anything but a traditionalist?"

(I admit that I haven't cross-checked whether all this is true.)
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
5-Jan-2018 00:14 Message #4708872
You might also remember the 2012 Vatican leaks ("Vatileaks") scandal. The personal butler Paolo Gabriele of Pope Benedict XVI leaked confidential letters and documents about corruption in Vatican finances and possibly other scandals. The pope had marked some of them "to be destroyed".
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
5-Jan-2018 11:43 Message #4708894
We also know of the tens of thousands of child abuse cases by Catholic clergy, which were hushed up for many years. In 2001 this started to be investigated by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - which used to be known as the Inquisition, (as Nigel and Monty Python may know). The head of the C.D.F. was the very traditionally minded Joseph Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict XVI.

For at least part of that time the priority was to cover-up the scandal.

But other popes did similar. For example, Norbert Denef (born 1949) when a boy was sexually abused for 6 years by his local priest. In 2003 he complained to the bishop of Magdeburg, and who offered him approx.£17,000 for a pledge of silence. Then he complained to the Vatican, which sent him a letter saying that Pope John Paul II would pray so that Denef could forgive the priest.

Some could be false accusations. Child abuse happens in numerous organisations. But the Vatican claims to be a source of goodness.

How many child abuse victims have signed a pledge of silence, and kept that pledge so we don't know about them? I suspect that the Vatican Library / Archives will have many thousands of such records, except for those which a pope marked "to be destroyed".

Jeff  Male  East Sussex
6-Jan-2018 12:10 Message #4708957
"The papacy and western Christianity is almost entirely a construct of Charlemagne and his his Carolingian sucessors"

Surely western Christianity is almost entirely a construct of St.Paul, even though he preached (and possibly knew) practically nothing about Jesus's life, and often contradicted Jesus's teachings. See thread "Are Christians more influenced by St.Paul than by Jesus?" first 3 posts.

The Catholic church claims to have the full direct line of popes. The Catholic Encyclopaedia lists them all (and the antipopes) from St.Peter (32-67), St. Linus (67-76), 3.St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88), St. Clement I (88-97), St. Evaristus (97-105) through to the current pope Francis (2013-).

Here I won't go into the many reasons why St.Peter should not have been the first pope.

Over the years the Catholic church has made various changes to its list of popes. For example, in 1947 it declared that pope Donus (in 973) never existed, deleted 6 popes and said that 4 of its saints weren't saints. Surely if the line of popes is so important, its history should have been known better.

On Christmas Day 800 in St.Peter's Rome, Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne (Charles) Holy Roman Emperor. The Vatican archive has correspondence between the Vatican and Charlemagne. In 2014 Pope Francis was awarded the International Charlemagne Prize for work done on European unification.

If we had to wait nearly 800 years after Jesus before the Catholic church gave his true message (NOT!), then everybody should have been singing "I wonder why you keep me waiting, Charlemagne". For the Christmas 800 celebrations, Carolingian singers should have been singing some other 1960s hit by the Bachelors: "I Believe", "I'll Walk with God", and especially "Can I Trust You?".
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
6-Jan-2018 12:21 Message #4708958
"Secrets of the Vatican Library"

Although more documents are being released from 52 miles of shelving of the "bibiloteca secreta" (meaning personal or private), how easy will it be to get the information that the Vatican wants to suppress?

In 2014 the Catholic website Crux Now included:-
"Scholars enter ... and present credentials that must be renewed every 6 months. Journalists, students, and amateur historians aren’t welcome.
Once admitted, there’s no browsing. Instead, researchers request specific documents, using bulky catalogues, some handwritten in Italian or Latin. They can request up to three folders each day.
If in just a few minutes they realize that what they’re seeking isn’t in the requested folders, they’re forced to pack up for the day - a challenge for scholars on a deadline or those who have traveled long distances.
Computers are allowed, but photos aren’t, which means long sessions in the third-floor reading room typing notes."

In Matthew 7:24 Jesus said "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock".
If the Vatican would reveal more of its secret words, we would find that the rock of St.Peter is very shaky.

Here I won't go into the numerous other ways in which the Catholic church goes directly against the bible.
Timmee  Male  Hampshire
12-Jan-2018 19:30 Message #4709485
Surprisingly - I didn't have the will or stamina to read all Jeff's contributions and follow up the references (despite having done an O.U. course in the 90's entitled 'Religion In Victorian Britain'.)

Broadly though, I would be inclined to give creedence to the idea that the Catholic hierachy might cover up inconvenient texts. Even if one had no knowledge of biblical study whatsoever, the Church's decades long (possibly centuries) over-up child abuse might lead one to doubt their sincerity.
Given their willingness over the previous millenium to massacre large numbers and torture men, women, & children for the slightest deviation from Papal orthodoxy, I have no trouble believing that they would be capable of hiding and expunging a few inconvenient books.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
13-Jan-2018 11:02 Message #4709528
Thats the thing though, I too can believe they'd hide or destroy inconvienient books in the last thousand years, but its only been in the last thousand years that the papacy and the Catholic church has been in the form we know it today. This post was aimed at the early church and its early medieval formation rather than its later medieval and Victorian forms, mostly after reading some very interesting books on the fall of the Roman Empire and Rome in late antiquity by historian Peter Heather, a very entertaining writer with a good grip of his chosen subject.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
13-Jan-2018 12:21 Message #4709535
There is plenty of evidence for what you say. Sorry about all the detail, but I like to back up what I write so that people can see that it isn’t baseless.

The Catholic church didn’t only hide or expunge a few inconvenient books, from 1559 to 1965 it had a List of Prohibited Books (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) which it forbade Catholics to read. Famous authors (such as Erasmus, Sartre, Montaigne, Voltaire, Hugo, Rousseau, Gide, Swedenborg, Spinoza, Kant, Hume, Descartes, Bacon, Milton, Locke, Copernicus, Galileo and Pascal) and many others had some or all of their books banned.
The Catholic Exchange website says “Victor Hugo’s Les Miserables, for example, was on the Index because it called into question both the need to respect lawful authorities and the laws themselves, and the consequent need to obey them”.
In 1992 José Saramago's "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ" was blocked from entering the Aristeion European Literary Prize due to pressure from the Catholic church.

Over the centuries, various popes decreed that the bible must not be translated into the local language, and some translators were tortured and killed, (e.g. in 1536 William Tyndale, whose translation forms most of the current bible, was strangled ). In the mid 1500s the Council of Trent put the bible on the prohibited list, preventing people from keeping a copy or reading it without a licence!

In 1998 Vatican official Father Pagano said “Pagano said the Church had a tradition of burning many of the most delicate heresy files and the Inquisition's archive was almost entirely burned on Pope Paul IV's death in 1559”, and that under Napoleon’s rule over 2,000 volumes were burned. So those secrets of the Vatican archives will never be known.

A book that had papal approval, so was not banned by the Catholic church, was the 1487 “Hammer of Witches” (Malleus Maleficarum). It detailed how to detect and torture witches, and for 191 years its sales were only beaten by the bible.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
13-Jan-2018 12:30 Message #4709536
On of the inconvenient texts that the Catholic hierarchy covers up is an important part of the Ten Commandments. The following goes back to Saint Augustine who was an extremely influential “early medieval” former of the church’s beliefs about 400 years earlier than the Holy Roman Emperor.

The Ten Commandments are in Exodus 20:3-17, and God repeated them (but with slight changes) in Deuteronomy 5:2-21. They are extremely important, but not numbered 1 to 10, so different denominations split them differently. Christianity keeps those, rather than the full 613 commandments of Judaism, because those 10 were written by the “finger” of God.

They include “You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands [or a thousand generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments”

But when the Catholic church summarises the 10 Commandments it skips over the prohibition of images. For example, the Vatican website shows in full what I have put in italics but, its “Traditional Catechetical Formula” omits most of it! Catholics give the excuse that God prohibits idolatry, but in and all 22 versions prohibit making likenesses of anything in heaven or on earth beneath or in the waters below, regardless of idolatry in the next verse.

I have often dragged my girlfriend at the time into Catholic churches to admire the wonderful paintings, carvings and stained glass windows, many of which show people in great detail.

Incidentally, the above Commandment in italics is a good example of how utterly nasty God is being “jealous” (nearly all versions) and who punishes grandchildren and great-grandchildren of people who hate Him!

(Here I won’t go into some of God’s inconsistencies and shortcomings about the Ten Commandments.)
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire
13-Jan-2018 13:06 Message #4709537
Incidentally, the above Commandment in italics is a good example of how utterly nasty God is

What a lot of drivel. It does show anything about how god is in any way whatsoever. It shows what the author thinks god might be like according to his own mindset. It shows what has been written down by man and copied throughout the ages.
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire
13-Jan-2018 13:06 Message #4709538
Does not show
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire
13-Jan-2018 13:09 Message #4709539
* God repeated them*

RUBBISH. Man wrote them and man repeated them.

You shouldn’t believe what you read in books.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
13-Jan-2018 17:53 Message #4709546
Oh is somebody posting his usual stuff that I can't see whilst totally ignoring what the thread is actually about?
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
13-Jan-2018 23:06 Message #4709555
Mr Quiet,

I agree with you. But the Ten Commandments are very widely quoted and preached, and billions of people say that the Ten Commandments are basic to their beliefs.
By “God” I am referring to the God of those believers. When you put your religious beliefs in writing, we can consider them, and whether we should believe what you write.


In other threads I have asked WH’s friends to remind her that she can view my posts by logging out, or by unblocking me. So I’ll now assume that they remind her again so that she can read this.

You blocked me, and you can easily unblock me – you might learn something. You are like a person covering their eyes and asking what is going on around them. Is that sensible?

My posts have:-
(a) Indicated many secrets that could be in the Vatican library.
(b) Referred to St.Paul (about 750 years before Charlemagne) who had a huge influence on the Vatican’s teachings.
(c) Referred to the line of popes which claims to have started at St. Peter, (correction: the non-existent Donus should be Donus II).
(d) Referred to Charlemagne and Carolingian, (plus original jokes, but I forgot to mention that most popes were bachelors).
(e) Indicated how difficult it is to get information from the Vatican’s library.

(f) Supported Timmee’s post “cover up inconvenient texts … hiding and expunging a few inconvenient books” and your post, giving facts further to “I would be inclined to give creedence to the idea“ and “I have no trouble believing” and “I too can believe“. (Most people don't know such facts and cannot be bothered to look them up, but anybody can check them from the details that I give.)

(g) Responded to you writing “This post was aimed at the early church and its early medieval formation and your references to the Holy Roman Empire by repeating some words that you had written. My last post included “an extremely influential “early medieval” former of the church’s beliefs about 400 years earlier than the Holy Roman Emperor.” Also continuing with (f) above, I wrote that St.Augustine started the Catholic omission in the summary of part of the Ten Commandments, which is one of the cornerstones of Jewish and Christian preaching. Augustine was an extremely important ”church father” who produced much influential work (e.g. The City of God) in the 5th century (he died in 430AD), Wikipedia says “In the history of Europe, the Middle Ages (or Medieval Period) lasted from the 5th to the 15th century”.

So I am not “totally ignoring what the thread is actually about”!

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