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shamanism

initiations?

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Female
hannah  Female  South East London 10-Nov-2017 17:05 Message #4705018
was just wondering if anyone here can identify with spontaneous shamanic initiation kinds of experiences?
Male
iii  Male  Avon 10-Nov-2017 17:13 Message #4705019
You need to explain more.

Midsummerseve is full of dullards who get confused easily. I'm actually one of the brightest on here.

My IQ is 26.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 10-Nov-2017 18:43 Message #4705026
Oh golly Hannah, you've opened a can of worms just by posting in this room, you'll bring the atheists out of all the woodwork to exercise their hobby horses.

I'm sure there are many who will have experienced such things, but few who will talk about it here, me included.
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 10-Nov-2017 22:50 Message #4705039
I think the stall point might be whether any one knows what a spontaneous shamanic initiation is.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 11-Nov-2017 09:01 Message #4705059
WH,

"you'll bring the atheists out of all the woodwork to exercise their hobby horses"

One of my main "hobby horses" in religion has been to ask questions closely related to what religious people have stated. Unfortunately they have rarely answered my questions.


"few who will talk about it here, me included"

Do you mean that you are one of the few that will talk about it?
In your thread "If spiritual and religious experiences are illusion and creations of the brain" http://www.midsummerseve.com/fora/thread.aspx?threadid=172783&page=1 on 25-Jan-13 at 13:59 I asked some questions, to which you replied "Jeff, its not about what I believe or not".

As not many people in MSE bother to look up things, I'll repeat the questions in my next post, hoping that Hannah and/or WH will answer them.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 11-Nov-2017 09:02 Message #4705060
WH,
"it would seem that theres an evolutionary purpose for ... what are commonly seen as shamanistic skills and practices".

Which of the following aspects of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism do you think are factual and outside our heads, and not only psychological effects? (I have labelled them a, b, c, ... for easy reference.)

"There are many variations of shamanism throughout the world, but several common beliefs are shared by all forms of shamanism. Common beliefs identified by Eliade (1972) are the following:
(a) Spirits exist and they play important roles both in individual lives and in human society.
(b) The shaman can communicate with the spirit world.
(c) Spirits can be benevolent or malevolent.
(d) The shaman can treat sickness caused by malevolent spirits.
(e) The shaman can employ trance inducing techniques to incite visionary ecstasy and go on vision quests.
(f) The shaman's spirit can leave the body to enter the supernatural world to search for answers.
(g) The shaman evokes animal images as spirit guides, omens, and message-bearers.
(h) The shaman can tell the future, scry, throw bones/runes, and perform other varied forms of divination"

Also do you believe:-
(i) Scarcity of hunted game "can be solved by "releasing" the souls of the animals from their hidden abodes. Besides that, many taboos may prescribe the behavior of people towards game, so that the souls of the animals do not feel angry or hurt, or the pleased soul of the already killed prey can tell the other, still living animals, that they can allow themselves to be caught and killed".
(j) Infertility of women "can be cured by obtaining the soul of the expected child".
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 11-Nov-2017 10:34 Message #4705065
And you think that will stop anyone vomiting their negativity and coughing up hairballs of malice all over the thread?
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 11-Nov-2017 11:01 Message #4705075
WH,

I don't know if other people will express any malice, but I have never expressed any malice in MSE. Nor has the other most prominent atheist on MSE.

Questioning and exposing factual falsehoods and self-contradictions in what people believe is not "vomiting", and can be positive steps towards truth.

Several people have asked what is meant by "spontaneous shamanic initiation". My 2nd post clarifies many aspects of "shamanism".

Incidentally coming "out of all the woodwork to exercise their hobby horses" is a self-contradiction, as the first part implies not previously stated and the second part implies repeatedly previously stated". Unless you want to give the insult that atheists are like certain insects. Or that you don't want them to contribute to discussions, while you are perhaps the most prolific poster. My questions invite people to post.

Why not answer the questions in my 2nd post?
Male
iii  Male  Avon 11-Nov-2017 11:06 Message #4705076
*And you think that will stop anyone vomiting their negativity and coughing up hairballs of malice all over the thread? *

Quoth the Raven sitting on the door:

Full of malice with a hairy ball.

Nevermore.
Female
jennifer  Female  Gloucestershire 12-Nov-2017 08:26 Message #4705140
I feel very relaxed and peaceful when I am communing with nature when gardening. Isn't that shamanism at it's best?
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 12-Nov-2017 15:17 Message #4705160
Isn't it good to clarify what one is discussing?

Some definitions of Shamanism include:-

(A) "a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world" (Wikipedia).

(B) "characterized by belief in an unseen world of gods, demons, and ancestral spirits responsive only to the shamans" who is "a priest or priestess who uses magic for the purpose of curing the sick, divining the hidden, and controlling events" (Merriam-Webster).

(C) "mediation between the visible and spirit worlds is effected by shamans" who is "a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events" (Free dictionary)

(D) "a belief in powerful spirits that can be influenced only by shamans" who "acts as intermediary between the natural and supernatural worlds, using magic to cure illness, foretell the future, control spiritual forces, etc." (Dictionary. com)

(E) "the belief that the world is controlled by good and evil spirits, and that these spirits can be directed by people with special powers" and a shaman is "a person who is believed to have powers to heal sick people or to remove evil spirits from them" or "who is believed able to heal and to foretell the future through communication with good and evil spirits" (Collins)

(F) "a belief in the power of the shaman" who is "a person who is thought to have special powers to control or influence good and evil spirits, making it possible for them to discover the cause of illness, bad luck, etc." (Cambridge)


Jennifer,

What do you mean by Shamanism? Which one of the above definitions, or what other definition, are you using?


Hannah,

Can you please explain what you mean?
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 12-Nov-2017 18:32 Message #4705182
Jeff is confused.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 14-Nov-2017 09:42 Message #4705293
Hannah,

Can you identify with spontaneous shamanic initiation kinds of experiences?

In what way?
Male
OnlineMSE  Male  Essex 14-Nov-2017 09:54 Message #4705295
hannah 10-Nov-2017 17:05
was just wondering if anyone here can identify with spontaneous shamanic initiation kinds of experiences

Definitely had a spontaneous Shaman irritation experience when their music was in the charts.!!

Female
jennifer  Female  Gloucestershire 14-Nov-2017 10:30 Message #4705299
Connecting with nature and all creation, is my shamanism! I can do that when I'm gardening. Something wrong with that, Jeff?
Female
hannah  Female  South East London 14-Nov-2017 12:48 Message #4705319
lol... let the worms begin... :/
Female
hannah  Female  South East London 14-Nov-2017 12:50 Message #4705320
oh, it began already :/ I'll make tea and brb...
Female
hannah  Female  South East London 14-Nov-2017 13:17 Message #4705323
TCT
"You need to explain more."

I mean things like spontaneous visions... connection/communication with non-human beings from what i have come to believe people call the Astral Plane... An invitation to strip the body of flesh by a non-human being and other invitations... intuitive accuracy... Things like that... i don't remember all of them right now. I'll add them later as and when...
Male
iii  Male  Avon 14-Nov-2017 13:21 Message #4705324
Sounds like schizophrenia.
Female
hannah  Female  South East London 14-Nov-2017 13:26 Message #4705326
Jeff, i think i just answered your question or part of it in my response to TheCommonTit...

Id like to add that i didn't make the post for the purposes of proving anything to anyone, i just wanted to know if i share commonalities with others here. WH knew what i meant without the explanation and thats good to know :)

However, i don't mind discussing it with others.
Male
iii  Male  Avon 14-Nov-2017 13:34 Message #4705327
I do remember a few years ago having a very vivid dream where someone threw a bucket at my head.

The very next day I picked up a woman in town who, without warning, took me to her flat and sat on my face all day.

Uncanny.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 14-Nov-2017 15:08 Message #4705338
Jennifer,
"Connecting with nature and all creation, is my shamanism! I can do that when I'm gardening. Something wrong with that, Jeff?"

That is not the meaning of the word "Shamanism", as defined by dictionaries. It helps to have a discussion if everyone agrees on what the words mean.


Hannah,
"I mean things like spontaneous visions... connection/communication with non-human beings from what i have come to believe people call the Astral Plane... An invitation to strip the body of flesh by a non-human being and other invitations... intuitive accuracy... Things like that...".

Thanks for explaining what you mean. But see my comment above to Jennifer.

In answer to your initial question, no I haven't had any experiences like that.
I suspect that people who do have them are imagining them.


"WH knew what i meant without the explanation"

WH claims to have psychic powers. it would have been good if she had answered my questions, using her supernatural knowledge and experience. Some people in this thread don't have these, which is why we asked for your explanation - especially as you and Jennifer have changed the meaning of the word "Shamanism".
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 14-Nov-2017 16:47 Message #4705343
Some people are aware of many of the unexplained things which happen all the time around the world which are beliefs, feelings, personal real life experiences and personal knowledge which is not easy to explain to others who possess no such knowledge.
Others can only understand the things which are written in black and white or that scientists with their present knowledge give verification.

I'm curious and, like Jeff, want to learn more about the unexplained. It may be possible to learn through one to one discussions but it will never be something which can be answered simply by firing off questions.
Male
brisinger  Male  Lancashire 14-Nov-2017 17:02 Message #4705344
Are you sure they weren't just having a type of seizure? ;-)
Female
hannah  Female  South East London 14-Nov-2017 22:17 Message #4705387
how have i changed the meaning if Shamanism? i was talking about spontaneous "initiatory" experiences. maybe you should look up what a shaman might experience and identify as initiatory experiences?

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