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Break up of the UK?

Next week's referendum

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Dustybin  Male  Suffolk 16-Jun-2016 11:59 Message #4639763
There seems little doubt that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all going to vote to REMAIN. So if the outcome of next week's referendum is to LEAVE the EU that will be because that's what the people of England want.

In that event, it could only be a matter of time before Scotland has another referendum and surely this time the question "Should Scotland be an independent country?" will receive a majority?
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 16-Jun-2016 12:16 Message #4639766
A lot of Welsh people are in the Leave camp so I'd not be so sure that its England that wants to leave. I think if theres a Leave vote then Scotland will have another independence referendum, but probably not immdeiately.

If Scotland, Wales and NI vote to Remain and England votes to Leave, but ends up staying because of the others, will England decide to end the union and go it alone? Could we end up with a Celtic Fringe that unites Wales, NI and Scotland as a seperate union of countries within the EU, would other parts of England want to join them?
bella111  Female  Devon 16-Jun-2016 12:17 Message #4639767
Well they would have to renegotiate with Europe and there would be no gaurantee they would be accepted very little money to contribute, and would not be able to use English pound.

I do not know how true it is but read the yes campaign in Scotland is diminishing! Wales overwhelmingly want to remain in UK so who knows.
fosy  Male  Leicestershire 16-Jun-2016 14:50 Message #4639787
with the collapse in the oil price can scotland afford to go it alone ?...i dont think so.
Goodgeezer  Male  West Yorkshire 16-Jun-2016 16:33 Message #4639796
No matter what the result I think Scotland especially will eventually have another referendum on independence.

Welsh Nats have virtually made it clear that they will watch Scotland and likely do the same if Scotland votes for independence.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 16-Jun-2016 17:02 Message #4639800
It doesn't make sense to me that Scots apparently want to remain in the EU yet also want to leave the UK because they don't like a "distant" Government based in Westminster making decisions that affect their lives...
SQL  Male  Devon 16-Jun-2016 18:34 Message #4639816
That's quite right Hiero and I have found it very odd that this question has never been put directly to the SNP.

I think the SNP dogma may be more of a 'I want to get away from the English' movement rather than wanting true independence. Let's face it, if you want true independence then tying up with the EU is the exact opposite direction.

I heard on the radio (BBC radio 4 to be precise) today in the 1 o'clock news program one of the 'Remain' protagonists arguing her case. It was quite amazing that one of the phone-in questions was related to regaining our sovereignty and this 'Remain' protagonist blatantly said that we would have more clout in international affairs and thus more importance by staying in the EU as the UK was one of the leaders in the EU.

I wonder how much she was paid to say that rubbish.

Timmee  Male  Hampshire 17-Jun-2016 18:57 Message #4640022
Truly excellent point about the contradictory nature of desire for both Scottish independence and E.U. membership'SQ'.
Phoenixnights  Female  Nottinghamshire 17-Jun-2016 19:06 Message #4640026
SQL - I have often thought the same !

How come independance from the UK for Scotland is a great idea ... until it comes to the EU ?

In which case its a great idea to be part of the EU and have your laws possibly vetoed by the EU parliament ?

Maybe there is something I'm missing here...
Tramontana  Male  Greater Manchester 17-Jun-2016 19:48 Message #4640034
I doubt that NI will vote to leave. They will want to stay aligned with England whatever happens.

Surely Scotland should be allowed its own destiny. If England votes to go, and the majority in Scotland vote otherwise, then there will be foundation for another independence vote.

A Scotland going independent and staying within the EU would be far more freer than it is now.
SQL  Male  Devon 17-Jun-2016 22:42 Message #4640081
Tram, I would disagree with "A Scotland going independent and staying within the EU would be far more freer than it is now."

One of the stated aims of the EU behemoth is 'An ever closer union' so maybe in the short-term they may have more freedom but in the longer term, due to their smaller size, they will be submerged by the likes of France, Germany and Spain.

Scotland could not survive economically on it's own, the recent instability of the North Sea oil prices have demonstrated that. They would end up failing and emulating the likes of Portugal and Greece.

I believe that if Scotland separated from England and applied to join the EU then Scotland may be forced to accept the Euro currency and the Schengen border-free travel arrangements. The latter would cause a great deal of trouble for England.

Being brutally honest you could say that Scotland cannot demand another referendum as that is within the remit of London alone.

Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 18-Jun-2016 08:41 Message #4640129
We might have to rebuild Hadrian's wall.
Madness102  Female  South Yorkshire 18-Jun-2016 10:52 Message #4640176
I understand totally why Scotland wants independence from the Government - and anyone who has lived "Up North" will know why too.

I lived in London most of my life, and everything is centered on what happens down there. Comments above from people in Devon cannot possibly understand that there are people living up north (or trying, at least) and are absolutely fed up with being totally ignored and misunderstood regarding the living conditions up there. The north/south divide is devastating and if you come up here and see for yourself, only then will you see, and understand it.

I challenge any southerner to come up here and actually live here for a while, and see for themselves and then not change their minds about this.

Note: "here" being North of Darlington, and Scotland ~ areas of extreme poverty. (look on Rightmove and see the prices of houses up there ~ that gives a real indication of the poverty up there.)
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-Jun-2016 11:51 Message #4640197
I think theres a southern bubble and if you live inside it you just don't see how it is on the outside. My parents moved up here from Sussex 3 years ago and are just starting to experience the realities of life outside the charmed bubble. How we're kept cash strapped and reliant on the EU for money for basic infrastructure, I think its done quite cynically too, people in the bubble don't see how EU money gets spent in Britain, only that its not spent there. To qualify for this EU funding an area has to be in the poorest few percent in Europe, we're the 5th largest economy in the world and yet parts of our country are on a par with Rommania and others. When I used to go up and down to Scotland probably 9 out of 10 building projects were being built with EU money, roads being improved from rutted single track lanes to two lane decent black top roads. Scotland has always been more outward looking than England, more willing to pay higher taxes for better public services. Scotland has been in a political union with England for 300 years so the idea of being part of a political union dosne't frighten them the same way it does many English, they just want to choose which union they belong too and it seems that many of them don't want the one with England anymore.

Here in North Wales we don't have the support of either Westminster or Cardiff, both are to remote, urban and unconnected. For me to get Cardiff I either have to go to England or take two days by public transport, even by car the journey is quite arduous, it's beautiful but it takes a long time.

Spanglish  Male  Shropshire 18-Jun-2016 13:08 Message #4640219
"North of Darlington, and Scotland ~ areas of extreme poverty"

Yes, you're right. I had a look at Rightmove and couldn't believe how people can live in that squalor and deprivation.

I mean to say, how could anyone want to live in that architect designed 6 bedroom, 5 bathroom house with a games room big enough for a full size snooker table, a cinema room, fishing and boating rights, lovely grounds etc etc. All for the giveaway price of £1,200,000.

I'd much rather spend the same amount on a cupboard in London.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-Jun-2016 18:31 Message #4640290
Of course some area of the north are wealthy, but the parts that are poor tend to be really poor, I know its the same in parts of London too, sometimes I wonder if the political elite will only do something about the housing crisis when theres no cleaners, because nobody but the wealthy will be able to afford to live there.
bella111  Female  Devon 18-Jun-2016 18:51 Message #4640297
Everywhere has poor areas I know a few years ago I helped because of staff shortage with Meals on Wheels I was horrified by some of the dwellings some elderly people lived in and that is Sunny Torquay it is just that cities are bigger and will show it more.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 18-Jun-2016 19:12 Message #4640315
Rural poverty is a big issue, people think poverty is something that only happens in cities and that everyone who lives in the country is wealthy, if only that were true. Poverty often looks a bit different in rural areas to towns, often its the insecurity of employment thats seasonal, the price of property out of all proportion to local wages whether its to rent or buy. Theres lots of people with fuel poverty, you pay more for electricity only tariffs but many don't have gas and nor will they get it. Things like petrol often cost more and not having a car is really difficult in areas where there next to no public transport or none at all. Where I live is just over two miles to the nearest bus stop, shop and train station, there are no buses that come nearer and taxi's won't come out here either. There are people here who rely on the local shop to for all their food shopping, one of the good things is that our GP's still do home visits if you really need one as they know that sometimes getting to the surgery isn't possible.
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 18-Jun-2016 20:07 Message #4640329
Madness..."Comments above from people in Devon cannot possibly understand that there are people living up north (or trying, at least) and are absolutely fed up with being totally ignored and misunderstood regarding the living conditions up there"

You think Devon /Cornwall gets much attention?
capnblackbeard  Male  Hertfordshire 19-Jun-2016 14:50 Message #4640640
i have no idea how iceland will vote
vanman  Male  Cambridgeshire 19-Jun-2016 15:07 Message #4640645
"i have no idea how Iceland will vote"

I think they'll vote to carry on opening 7 days a week,
and continue to offer a minimum spend of 25 quid for on line order deliveries.

And free delivery if you spend £35 or over. ;-}
Timmee  Male  Hampshire 20-Jun-2016 13:41 Message #4640770
I think Madness is spot on with her North/South point, and it's clearly the reason the Scots voters wiped out Labour. I think they've achieved their strongest position right now with the English parliament desperate to keep them on board.

Seems daft that they'd want to swap the Pound for the Euro, and rule from London for rule from the Brussels commision. Clearly no one in Scotland has looked closely at the situation of the helpless Greeks, the madness of the European Central Bank or the dangerous derivative/debt mountians and weak balance sheets of the big continental banks.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 20-Jun-2016 18:50 Message #4640784
Maybe they do understand it but just disagree with you Timmee, I'm not sure they will have to accept the Euro, I think if we leave then the whole EU will be different and Scotland would be joining a very different EU to the one we have now.

I'm hating the way this whole debate's going, the way its brought out so much pettyness, nationalism and jingosim, the only good thing thats come out of it is showing even more clearly the jaded cynicism of modern politics.

If we do Leave and Scotland looks like it will have another vote on leaving the UK, then I will seriously think about moving there.
Dustybin  Male  Suffolk 20-Jun-2016 18:54 Message #4640785
The bookies now think a REMAIN vote is certain. You can get odds of 3 to 1 against the EXIT side winning.
Madness102  Female  South Yorkshire 21-Jun-2016 12:39 Message #4641032
and only the Rich can afford to BET !!!

Wonder: I too am thinking of moving to Scotland, it's cleaner for one thing ~ but I shall be looking for a bus~stop nearby, poor you having to walk two miles. Luckily, where I live at present (not Derby) I have two bus stops nearby, something you have to consider once you get past a certain age. My parents moved to March (Cambs) where the town was a mere 12 mins walk away, but within a year they became much more frail and that walk became nearly an hour . . .

My suggestion to look on Rightmove re house prices was to draw people's attention to the CHEAPNESS of property up in the North East, so set your criteria to "No minimum price" and you will see. Take a look at the street views to get a good idea of the locality. My reference to Devon was just a referral to how far away Devon is from the North East and nothing personal.

and Yes, you are absolutely right about the "London Bubble" and a very good way to describe this introvertedness. Get away and you definitely see more clearly the true economics of this country. The government are threatening that if we leave EU then prices will go up ~ but we are paying £350m a WEEK so where is that money going to go when we withdraw? Someone has no idea of the semantics of housekeeping!!!

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