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How do you decide

which bits of the Bible

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Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 21-Aug-2014 19:03 Message #4506674
Are the true words of God? There seems to be two distinct "voices" in the Bible, one a loving caring God or Jesus and the other quite a authoritarian one promising damnation to anyone who dosen't follow the often contradictory instructions and teachings.

I'm not trying to have a pop at anyone, I'm genuinely interested, not being a Christian its something I can't get my head around.

Please can have a discussion rather than loads of C&P because I think by now we all know what the relevant passages are and where they're contradicted and loads of C&P is like Immodium to discussion.
Male
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire 21-Aug-2014 19:24 Message #4506682
It's a 'Believer's Paradise' isn't it?

The ultimate gift to anyone who's into fantasies, or religious-based authoritarianism, or some megalomaniac who wants to create a sect of psycho-phantic followers!

As the bible doesn't give any indication whatsoever as to what is supposed to be fact and what is supposed to be allegorical then the reader is free to choose how they wish to interpret it - aren't they?

If these people were able to 'get their head outside of the Bible' for a few seconds they see the book(s) for what they really are - a collection of stories created and collected by the Jews, written down by the Jews, to give them some historic and contemporary kudos - just like any other uncorroborated history written by a Nation!





Jason.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 21-Aug-2014 20:10 Message #4506684
A very good question wonderoushen. Some people, whether they are believers of religion or atheism, seem too blinkered to accept that they may be mistaken in those beliefs.

My own thoughts are that the bibles, any bible, is no more than a book written by man. The wise men of that period of history, no different from the wise men of today, putting into writing what the consider to be the facts. With so many authors it is no surprise that there are so many contradictions.

No-one knows for certain which parts are accurate or which, if any, are the true words of God. As several posters have stated recently the existence or accuracy of a book in no way confirms or denies the words of God.

It is a pity we have so many religious nuts and atheist nuts believing they know it all.
Male
Liam136  Male  Essex 21-Aug-2014 20:18 Message #4506688
Those people who believe it is the word of God seriously delude themselves. All religious scripts are allegorical in nature. Would God have stopped talking to mankind 2,000 years ago? Of course not, but if some cleric now wrote something down and said it was the word of God there may well be a sectioning. Remember the scorn poured on David Icke.

Yet he is no more or no less a medium for the voice of God than anyone else.

The bible is a collection of scripts, some very well written, with high moral value in many ways, but some of it full of violence and vengeance, but written by men thousands of years ago.

The koran is no different
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 22-Aug-2014 10:45 Message #4506803
I've always thought the divine speaks very quietly, I wonder how many of us are quiet enough to hear the divine should it speak? It seems that many of our religions encourage noisyness, why is that?

I was taught that praying is you taking to god and meditation was you listening to god, did we lose a contemplative tradition during the reformation and should we do more to encourage meditation and contmeplation regardless of religion?
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 22-Aug-2014 12:27 Message #4506832
The Quran is merely a rehash of the Old Testament.

oops, I may well be in trouble now.
Female
LutonLady  Female  Bedfordshire 22-Aug-2014 12:52 Message #4506834
Are you accusing the Prophet of plagiarism?
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 22-Aug-2014 12:54 Message #4506836
I guess that I just did, in a round about way.
Female
LutonLady  Female  Bedfordshire 22-Aug-2014 13:00 Message #4506837
I can see the burning of a Minnie the minx effigy!
Male
Soul-Provider  Male  Hampshire 22-Aug-2014 16:03 Message #4506853
How can you believe something that has not been proved,or how can you prove to someone to believe in something that has not been seen,or shown us it is there,
Female
Aely  Female  Hampshire 22-Aug-2014 16:04 Message #4506854
WH, you could do what I do to help reduce the confusion. Firstly, remember that the New Testament is the book covering Jesus' teaching of the "new Covenant". The old Testament is the book of the Jewish religion and is useful for context, comparison and history. Also a very good read in places.

Secondly, remember that, word of God or not, it was transcribed by mortals who, with the best will in the world, will put their own spin on it. Also the books of the New Testament were chosen by men of a certain society and era out of a much larger selection of candidates for inclusion. They might have thought they were guided by God but were just as likely to have been guided by their own existing beliefs and prejudices.

In other words, having read what is written, do what Mary is said to have done after being visited by the Angel and ponder these things in your heart. Then live your life in what you believe is the right way. You probably won't go far wrong and even if it turns out that God is a myth and there is nothing after death of the body at least you will be content in yourself and your actions while you are alive.
Male
Mazer  Male  South East London 22-Aug-2014 16:37 Message #4506860
Minnie. I presume you are not a Muslim so you can believe whatever you wish but I think it sad that anyone mocks the beliefs of others.

Aely. A very good post with a very good message.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 22-Aug-2014 17:45 Message #4506865
"we all know what the relevant passages are"

Many people don't know what they are.


"The Quran is merely a rehash of the Old Testament"

Although the qur'an refers to some Old Testament and New Testament stories, it has many details different. And it has huge amounts about topics such as paradise and hellfire and non-believers.


"Jesus' teaching of the "new Covenant""

The God of the New Testament is the same God as the God of the Old Testament.
Jesus was a Jew who said that he didn't come to change Jewish law at all, (Matthew 5:17-19), despite his getting out of some dliemmas. The new covenant was the invention of St.Paul, who never met Jesus and perverted many of Jesus's teachings, (see "Are Christians more influenced by St.Paul than by Jesus?" (www.midsummerseve.com/fora/thread.aspx?threadid=174435&page=1)).
Male
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire 22-Aug-2014 17:48 Message #4506866
Mazer,

"... I think it sad that anyone mocks the beliefs of others."


And what about the beliefs of extremists, like the IS and the Taliban, are they beyond mocking too?


To some people, anyone who believes in a religion is an extremist - it's all relative.




Jason.

Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex 22-Aug-2014 17:50 Message #4506867
Bearing in mind the many self-contradictions in the bible, I have a theory that the whole of the bible was written by a consortium of:-
- the Norse god of mischief Loki;
- the Navajo trouble making god Coyote;
- gods of confusion/chaos/disorder: the Ancient Egyptian god Set/Seth/othernames and the Ancient Greek god Kydoimos/Cydoemus and goddess Eris/Discordia.

The bible is the actual words of these gods. If you say they are from the wrong time and place, you forget that many gods and goddesses are immortal and can be anywhere.

You cannot disprove this theory, so you should respect it.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 22-Aug-2014 18:19 Message #4506876
I don't see any reason to mock someone else's beliefs whether those beliefs are religious or secular. We all have our beliefs.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 22-Aug-2014 18:21 Message #4506877
No-one knows for certain which parts are accurate or which, if any, are the true words of God. As several posters have stated recently the existence or accuracy of a book in no way confirms or denies the words of God

I wrote this earlier but could probably repeat it on many posts on the subject of God and bibles.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 22-Aug-2014 18:43 Message #4506881
Most people reading these sort of threads on here will Jeff, because you spend so much time telling us what they are. lol.

The reason I worded the thread as I did was to enter dialogue with those who have chosen a peaceful path and how they reconsile itwith the more blood thirsty and judgemental passages.

Aely, I know the OT is a history of the Jews and how they came by many of their laws and that the NT is Jesus, but as Jeff pointed out the God of the OT is the same god as in the NT. I'm also aware of the various councils that decided which books were to be part of the NT, I also know quite a bit about the various heracies within the early church.

Not being a Christian or a member of any Abrahamic faith, I'm interested to in how people interpret the Bible (or Koran) for themselves. To say its a believers paradise as someone, Jason, I think, said is all part and parcel of the Reformation which encouraged people to read scripture for themselves and into have it mediated or interpreted by a priestly caste. Many people forget this side of the reformation choosing to remember the burning of icons the painting over of fresco's and getting rid of the worship of saints, the Pope and to a large extent the divine feminine in the form of the Virgin Mary.
Female
Minnie-the-Minx  Female  Hertfordshire 22-Aug-2014 20:03 Message #4506906
Actually, I mock not, Mazer, so presume not. I have read an English translation of the Quran and I have also read most of the Old Testament. The prophet did indeed recover the ancient scripts. How else would the same prophets appear in both histories? Much of the Old Testament predates the Quran by several thousand years and yet many of the stories appear in both.
I think that the really sad thing is that Christians, Jews and Muslims fight over religion when they believe in the same God.
It is time now for an end to anger and hatred and religious intolerance.
Male
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire 23-Aug-2014 08:54 Message #4507006
Mazer,

MTM wrote: "The Quran is merely a rehash of the Old Testament."


You replied:

"Minnie. I presume you are not a Muslim so you can believe whatever you wish but I think it sad that anyone mocks the beliefs of others."


If you took the trouble to study the Quran you see that it speaks well of the Torah and the Bible - and acknowledges that all three books were revealed by the "one true god".

Now if that doesn't class the Quran as a rehash then tell me what it is!




Jason.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 23-Aug-2014 09:13 Message #4507009
I think it was probably the words merely and rehash which gave the impression that is was said in a way which made it sound as if it was said mockingly.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 23-Aug-2014 09:29 Message #4507011
Quite amusing that Jason is actually so full of himself as to assume Mazer hasn't studied the Quran. Enlightening to know that it isn't only science he knows everything about. Could be Prim in disguise!
Male
Argonaut  Male  Lancashire 23-Aug-2014 10:17 Message #4507015
nf,

I'm glad you found it amusing!

But please note: - one doesn't have to be 'full of oneself' to make assumptions.

If Mazer knew his Quran then he could have used the "three major books of the monotheistic religions were all revealed by the one true God" as a defence against MtM's challenge - but he didn't, he came out with the typically knee-jerk reaction of 'respecting (i.e. not mocking) other people's beliefs' - which is usually a cry from those who don't know enough to defend their beliefs.

In all the years I've spent dealing with beliefs (of any form) I've noticed a very common element - the more fervent the belief the less knowledge they have about the subject/object of their belief!

By the way, you stated, in a previous Post: -

"I don't see any reason to mock someone else's beliefs whether those beliefs are religious or secular. We all have our beliefs."


I asked, prior to that, "What about the beliefs of the IS and the Taliban?"

Should those be protected from mockery too?





Jason.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 23-Aug-2014 12:10 Message #4507040
Any chance of sticking to the OP and not indulging in all this macho posturing? Watching and reading you guys is a pretty good lesson in why theres so much trouble in religion, its not about who worships the right god or who worships him in the right way, its who can score the most points off eachother. Where is god in this?

Jason, you and I might find the beliefs of IS and the Taliban replusive on every level, but if you mock and lack respect for your enemy then you will often lose. These guys are hardened fighters who know their terrain and are being led by an experienced and clever general. To mock them by by calling them towel heads or calling thier religion a rehash of something else, belittles and demeans "us", maybe one of the reasons why the West has been so unsucessful in eliminating radical Islam is a fundamental lack of respect. 'Wheres thier respect?' I hear you ask, frankly I don't know, but I do know if we sink to thier level we lose far more than military victory can bring, we lose our humanity, our sense of proportion, we end up with the ridiculous situations we have now with serious threats on privacy and individual liberties.
Male
MrQuiet  Male  Northamptonshire 23-Aug-2014 13:09 Message #4507051
I disagree Jason. I agreed with Mazer that no religion should be mocked but that does not mean it must be respected. It may be as simple as saying nothing if mockery is your only option.
I see no reason to mock the beliefs of IS. I can see many reasons to disagree but mockery?

We see plenty of macho posturing on here wonderoushen and I am guilty of this myself sometimes. It can change a good intelligent discussion into a lot of tit for tat rubbish so my apologies if I have been guilty on your threads.
You asked one of those good questions for which no-one is likely to have good answers.

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