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Trump has finally

gone totally mad

Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
17-Apr-2020 19:49 Message #4777036
I was interested in your comment Hiero. I have an open mind and if there is a private system that is inclusive to all people, not like USA, then fine.

Anyway, I quickly looked up data and the WHO states:
According to the World Health Organization, Germany's health care system was 77% government-funded and 23% privately funded as of 2004.

Even the BBC in 2017 on another search states the same figures so a bit out of date but might give the gist of it.

Ah, so the health insurance cover is compulsory and a businessman pays 7% of his pre tax salary as does his employer. Germany pays 11% of it's wealth into health care whilst the UK pays 9.8%.

"Martin Wetzel, a GP for 25 years, explains they have done a deal with big insurance funds to make prevention a priority.
"I have more time - and it needs more time to explain to patients what I'm doing and why. So my consultations changed from an eye wink to an average of 15 minutes," he says. During that time patients might be offered a range of interventions to improve their health provided locally, which frees up time for the GP. These include subsidised gym sessions, access to different sports and nutrition advice as well as screening programmes to reduce loneliness as well as increasing healthiness.

It is being run by a company called Gesundes Kinzigtal in which the doctors are majority shareholders.

Already a couple of years into their 10-year project, they say healthcare is costing 6% less than you would expect for the population. They are trying to improve data sharing and believe hospital treatment can be reduced further.

Much of the vision comes from its chief executive Helmut Hildebrandt, a pharmacist and public health expert.

"At the moment the economy in Germany runs so well they don't have a problem. But in the long run every politician or administrator knows in the next 10 or 20 years the system will run into a crisis."

He fears that could undermine the commitment to the health insurance covering most Germans, with a risk of richer people opting out of it."
Male
HotOrWot  Male  Lancashire
17-Apr-2020 20:38 Message #4777047
Best not mention that the majority of healthcare in Germany is private, don't want to rattle certain cages do we?
I sound like a cracked record but I still don't get the mass testing thing, according to the website tumbled mentioned, Germany has tested 1.7 million people (one time each I presume) out of a population of 83 million.
I still don't see how that has led to so few deaths....


Nothing wrong with private healthcare. Trying to keep from privatising the ancillary services around hospitals and doctors often holds our NHS back. Our system works for us.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
17-Apr-2020 20:49 Message #4777051
In USA many are without cover in private healthcare.

The catastrophy of people being asked for credit cards before getting care.

Nothing wrong?
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
17-Apr-2020 21:08 Message #4777053
The problem here is people expect private healthcare levels of service at NHS prices...
Male
terry  Male  West Yorkshire
18-Apr-2020 16:08 Message #4777128
'The problem here is people expect private healthcare levels of service at NHS prices...'

Isn't healthcare the same whether private or public? about saving lives and improving the health of people? If money is the main driver why are we being so hypocritical in expressions of sadness or concern for people with illness? why don't we just say if they can't afford it let 'em die?
Male
Neros1954  Male  Devon
18-Apr-2020 16:21 Message #4777130
Absolutely terry. Rich or poor or even destitute we are considered a civilised country and everyone should treated or saved regardless of cost.
Overall I think we do a splendid job in the uk where the most destitute person will have an ambulance responding and emergency treatment with no thoughts of expense. I do believe that a lot of medical services are better of in the private sector but I would like to see the NHS with much more funding. I know the funding grows year on year and may well be very generous but it’s not enough. It needs major cash injections such as it is getting now but it needs that cash to pay for the daily work of the NHS and not just a pandemic.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
18-Apr-2020 16:48 Message #4777136
Wikipedia on Health care in the United States includes "The United States life expectancy is 78.6 years at birth, up from 75.2 years in 1990; this ranks 42nd among 224 nations, and 22nd out of the 35 industrialized OECD countries, down from 20th in 1990. In 2016 and 2017 life expectancy in the United States dropped for the first time since 1993. Of 17 high-income countries studied by the National Institutes of Health, the United States in 2013 had the highest or near-highest prevalence of obesity, car accidents, infant mortality, heart and lung disease, sexually transmitted infections, adolescent pregnancies, injuries, and homicides. A 2017 survey of the healthcare systems of 11 developed countries found the US healthcare system to be the most expensive and worst-performing in terms of health access, efficiency, and equity. In a 2018 study, the USA ranked 29th in healthcare access and quality.
Prohibitively high cost is the primary reason Americans have problems accessing health care."



As we all know, Trump is a habitual liar and tries to evade responsibility when it suits him.

But Trump takes the credit when it suits him, such as by instisting that his name is on the $1,200 etc cheques to needy people, even though the payment was agreed by Democrats as well as Republicans, and government cheques must not be partisan. (This great businessman wasn't so generous when he underpaid his wiorkers, or deliberately repeatedly went bankrupt to avoid paying people & organisations to which he owed a lot of money.)
Having cheques with Trump's name on it will greatly boost his popularity.


In response to his tweets such as "'LIBERATE MINNESOTA!' 'LIBERATE MICHIGAN!' 'LIBERATE VIRGINIA,'", which are all have Democrat governors, many thousands of people in those states are getting close together.

I predict that if in those 3 states the number of Coronavirus COVID-19 cases and deaths:-
- greatly increases, then Trump will blame the governors, not himself;
- doesn't greatly increase, then Trump will claim all the credit.

If in those 3 states many people who congregate catch the disease, will they blame themselves? And will they decline medical help so that other people who didn't cause their own illness can have the medial resources?

I predict that Democrats will blame Trump, and Republicans will blame their Democrat governor.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
18-Apr-2020 16:56 Message #4777138
"Isn't healthcare the same whether private or public?"
Obviously not otherwise people wouldn't pay extra for it would they?
Of course money is the main driver, that's why everybody's immediate response to this crisis is to suggest that all NHS staff receive a massive pay rise. That's clearly their driver as much as a manager who is juggling budgets.

"why don't we just say if they can't afford it let 'em die?"
Oh come on terry that's not what I meant and you know it....
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
18-Apr-2020 18:56 Message #4777153
Because people are waking up to the massive undervaluing of people we rely on so heavily, not just doctors and nurses, but the health care workers, the social care workers, the shop staff, transport workers and delivery drivers, we have massive inequality in this country, the economic model works for a few but many are just about scraping by. No longer are these people just "staff", but essential and often hidden workers we all rely on and can't function without. Maybe we finally want people to be paid according to their value to society as a whole not just their wealth generating potential for a largely self serving eltie.

People go for private medicine for a variety of reasons and not all because they think its "better", they may not have to wait for a hip or knee replacement, they may want or need something the NHS dosen't fund or will no longer fund, like many cosmetic procedures, that will improve the life of the person having the treatment. What many who go for private health care don't realise is that if something goes wrong they will be back in the NHS as an emergency.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
18-Apr-2020 19:22 Message #4777157
"Isn't healthcare the same whether private or public?"
Obviously not otherwise people wouldn't pay extra for it would they?


No it's not.
When I returned to nursing on an acute heart surgery ward it looked a sad place, not as clean as wards used to be, but then full time domestic staff under the management of the hospital, the matron, the ward sisters/managers had been replaced by part time domestics run by a perceived cheaper private company who had offered a tender in competition with other offers. So we had a couple of hours of cleaning instead of someone who "belonged" to the ward. In addition, the curtains around each bed was held on by just a few clips and being honest, the food was awful.

On the other hand, the patient care was excellent. We were a proactive team, loved the work, and patients were all given the care and attention they deserved and we had 32 beds, always full, often with some bed blocking due to emergencies that had nowhere else to go, then we couldn't discharge them.

I realised that after working on that ward, I wouldn't be afraid of major heart surgery.

Just prior to that, after completing a return to nursing course I worked for 6 weeks at a very posh private hospital BUPA where they had lined curtains, individual rooms and excellent food. When I met the Intensive Care nurses they said they regretted moving into private hospital work because it was so basic they became bored. They said if any real emergency happened, they they had to call an ambulance for that patient to go to the local NHS hospital.

Even though it might sound nice to have a private room, from a nursing perspective you couldn't see how the patient was doing, or if they were in trouble and couldn't press the bell. I saw a lot of petty demands where patients had to be pleased that overshadowed quieter patients if time was short. It was impossible to say no because of accepting shared care, people paying thousands wanted their hotel money's worth.
I would never want to have major heart surgery or any serious surgery in a private hospital after that experience as they can't cope at the same level as the NHS did.

In addition, as a primary care nurse I met at least 2 men who had paid for a full health check, around £600-£900 so they were furious (2 separate occasions) when they each had low testosterone and one had diabetes, not found on their expensive health check.

Paying a lot of money for something does not always mean you are getting a better service.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
19-Apr-2020 10:58 Message #4777216
To get back to the OP, Trump has announced that if its found that China somehow released CV19 then there will be consequenses because of the deaths mostly in Europe. Not only is he denying the horrific situation in the US, but is using peoples deaths as a weapon in his war of words and trade tarrifs with China, at least I hope he dosen't intend to escalate it beyond words and tarrifs, the last thing the world needs is a war between Amercia and China.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
19-Apr-2020 11:15 Message #4777225
It's hard not to agree with him isn't it? Far from denying what's happening in the states he is painfully aware.
I would suggest everyone is looking for someone to blame, we are all worried and want this thing gone, so anything that appears to prolong or exacerbate it's affects is going to be seized upon.
The people who break the isolation rules will blame someone else, it's the way of things....
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
19-Apr-2020 12:42 Message #4777240
Trump is using the situation to verbally war against China. And deflect American's minds against his failings.

Common sense alone would ask, why would a country infect its own civilians and jeopardize its rising economic prominence. Theoritically it would make more sense that the US planted the virus, to stall China's increasing competition in world markets, which the US cannot match.

China makes enormous numbers of essential components used and relied upon in the West. The UK of course is half in bed with China already. Chinas tactics are to use trade expansion the way we use territorial expansion.

Trump is an idiot, he has failed the COVID war, and is looking to blame someone. US economy must have shrunk considerably, his pet plan has been dealt a blow. China's economy is said to have shrunk just over 6%. But it has most of its workforce, which it looked after.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
19-Apr-2020 18:17 Message #4777273
Gilpin, I couldn't of put it better myself, it may be human nature to look for someone to blame, well it natural for some humans to do that, but not others. Trump is using this pandemic to try and bolster his own falling poularity by appealling to peoples base instincts, I think peope deserve better from their leader, especially one as important as POTUS.

Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
19-Apr-2020 18:27 Message #4777276
It is ridiculous to even think it but I even wonder if Trump not only has delusions of grandeur but thinks he is in charge of the virus.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
20-Apr-2020 10:29 Message #4777348
He's been celebrating the idiots who are protesting about lockdown and now he's cobbled together a video of Cuomo the New York Govenor to make it look like he's being complimentary to Trump rather than totally scathing, Trump an entire Corona Virus press briefing showing it.
Male
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
23-Apr-2020 12:32 Message #4777744
Trump has been promoting the anti-malrial drug hydroxychloroquine as a possible cure of Conronavirus COVID-19. For example, on 21-Mar-20 he tweeted "HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE & AZITHROMYCIN, taken together, have a real chance to be one of the biggest game changers in the history of medicine. The FDA has moved mountains - Thank You! Hopefully they will BOTH (H works better with A, International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents)." He said that it was up to the doctors, but he still advocated it.

This was on the advice of non-experts, without much investigation of the cons compared to the pros, small populations tested, and not using the excellent method of randomised double-blind trials. But researchers such as the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases recommended against using hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.

Trump has such strong influence, naturally demand for that drug has greatly increased. Trump's trade adviser Peter Navarro recommended it. Trump has investments in French drug manufacturer Sanofi, that produces it (under the brand name Plaquenil). Trump's occasional fellow golfer Chirag Patel co-founded Amneal Pharmaceuticals, and Trump's son-in-law investor Jared Kushner is a friend of Roberto Mignone who is a board member of Teva Pharmaceutical Industries, which are increasing production of the drug.

His advisor world-leading infectious diseases expert Anthony Fauci has been more cautious, and sometimes contradicted Trump, but managed to keep his job so far, (and needed extra security against right-wing thugs).

It now seems that hydroxychloroquine does moer harm than good against COVID-19. In a study of 368 male veterans, 11% died under normal treatment, 28% died who were given hydroxychloroquine, and 22% died who were given hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin. More studies are needed.

If hydroxychloroquine turned out to be a significant help in eliminating COVID-19, Trump would be hailed as a hero, and he would claim the credit.
But now that it seems to be disadvantageous, does he apologise for having strongly promoted it, and now advise against using it? He can blame the doctors. And he has demoted Rick Bright, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Health and Human Services (Preparedness and Response). Then Bright said "Specifically, and contrary to misguided directives, I limited the broad use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, promoted by the Administration as a panacea, but which clearly lack scientific merit."


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