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NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 16-Mar-2019 17:24 Message #4736996
OK Just Lynn.

What if your son GIVES you money to buy the bike.
Then you spend it on something else.

The Lib Dems took the votes, then had the cheek to abandon their own manifesto, which is why they got the votes in the first place.
They could have negotiated with Del Boy Cameron, or not join a coalition.
What the Lib Dems did is say, No point voting for us anymore
They now have their party conference in an old phone box.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 17:40 Message #4736998
Clegg didn't get the money to remove student loans and he wasn't in power.
Whatever was on the LibDem manifesto, they were very much a minority government with a small g.

He tried to negotiate with Del Boy (great name!) but he could only go so far.

Laugh as you might, I'm in a similar situation with my employer in using skills properly to reduce costs and more time to GPs to see patients, but I have been banging my head on a brick wall for around 5 years. Other nurses who are not in that situation think I haven't asked, demonstrated the evidence, but like Clegg, just didn't get anywhere because I'm not in charge. It is a really frustrating situation to be in a lesser management position but some leaders might know their field of expertise, but not have a clue of the impact further down the line.

I think it was barney, in this or another thread who said business leaders should have experience in the fields they are making judgements on. I agree, but some skills are transferable and some people just want to line their own nest, and back to Cameron, he knew if he did what Clegg wanted, he would be seen as weak and walked over by Clegg.

You know, there seem to be moves about to change how our politics works. I hope this mess gives us the momentum to bring in more sharing of power where one person like May, Cameron or even Blair can act like a dictator.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 17:42 Message #4736999
I meant NOT act like a dictator.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 16-Mar-2019 18:42 Message #4737001
So why didn't Clegg tell Cameron that he'd leave the coalition rather than go back on his manifesto promises? Especially one that got him so many votes in the first place and that so many party rank and file were against him doing? I think it was blindly following the conservatives on pretty much everything that ended up not just with Clegg losing his seat, but with the electoral wipeout they suffered at the next GE, why would anyone support them?
justfem  Female  Cambridgeshire 16-Mar-2019 18:55 Message #4737004
When Clegg was leader of the LibDems at the hung parliament he could effectively act as "King Maker"... he didn't and that is essentially why there was a wipe-out. He was arguably the only modern day LibDem leader to hold a position of power and he blew it.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 19:41 Message #4737007
I don't know the answer WH, but can you imagine what would have been done had he dropped out. It was a no -win situation that I imagine he had to take a chance on.

I'm not sure he lost for society, but at his own and the party expense in a way he could not really predict. Maybe he is an optimist and just had to try?

I think the LibDems did a lot to put the brakes on what the Tory's had in store for the vulnerable. In my opinion, observation, and experience, all hell let loose once the Tory's got a majority, once could say, based on the moderating influence of the LibDems.

Just how I see it anyway.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 19:47 Message #4737008
Not quite the same, but the DUP aren't exactly King Maker's working with May.

It's easy to look at it and say so, but in reality there is nothing KIngly about holding a minority influence and if lucky, a moderating influence which is what happened.

As the public and usually no experience in politics, it's probably too easy to impose what we think we could have done better but I reckon there wasn't much genuine input, just an irritating facard for Cameron.
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 16-Mar-2019 19:48 Message #4737009
I'd say Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg have been more dishonest in their leave campaign than Clegg ever was.

That makes all 3 of them dishonest ;)
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 20:42 Message #4737010
Clocky, poor wording. I'm not convinced Clegg was dishonest over student fees.

I genuinely think he was one of the good guys.

It's when we listen to people speak, things come out, like Rees-Mogg thinking food banks are a good idea and how things should be. He appears to think a normal society would back in the Dickens age. Comments people make that show their true beliefs and not being politically correct. Clumsy comments...well I'm glad they do it otherwise some folks would never pick up on it.

I've never heard Clegg say anything but common sense and genuine compassion. In fact, for some reason, I've liked all the recent Lib Dems, especially Charles Kennedy and Paddy Ashdown.
barney  Male  Surrey 16-Mar-2019 22:42 Message #4737012

I was a prison Officer for 34yrs so I think I am fairly qualified in knowing what I am talking about. I could write a dozen pages about what's wrong with the Justice system now but unfortunately I signed the Official Secrets Act which lasts for life so I cannot.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 16-Mar-2019 23:09 Message #4737013

That's only a view from the inside.
Working in the prison service doesn't give you insight into preventing people getting there. In fact it could make you less sensitive to it.

It doesn't change that criminals usually don't plan to get caught so longer sentences is not a deterrent.
There are vulnerable people trying to get in on petty crimes due to lack of ability to cope with life on the outside.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Mar-2019 09:51 Message #4737018
Yes he could of offered to work with Ed Millibands Labour party, something that many of the rank and file membership would of been happy with, I think had he done that he could of made a real difference, instead he chose to put personal power over principle. He may have managed to water down some of the austerity measures Cameron and Osbourne had planned, but as it happened it only held them back for a time and possibly made them more punnishing by the time they were let off the leash.

Given that it was a hung parliament there were lots of ways they could of influenced things, they could of done a lot more to bring the country together politically, to have more cross party consensus if that groundwork had been laid then we might better off as a country, in so many ways, not least with Brexit.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 17-Mar-2019 10:05 Message #4737019
If only we all had hindsight to making better decisions WH. I was disappointed he didn't work with Milliband at the time.

As for anyone commenting on seeking personal power, well yes, that's the point. Any leader needs to seek power to put into action their policies. If they didn't have a desire for power they would be powerless (Silly comment I know but true).

It's the personalities and what they do with that power that's part of the problem.

For example, someone can be shipped in at the drop of a hat to direct the DWP, yet have no training in understanding how people end up on benefits. We wouldn't put someone who has never done surgery leading a surgical team?
Nigel_In_Devon  Male  Devon 17-Mar-2019 10:28 Message #4737022
I still think Clegg did the best he could. There was no way he could force all his manifesto through as the minority party in the coalition so he just had to negotiate the best he could. Had he gone with Labour would they have any more of a majority than the Tories with the DUP have now? Would possibly have been as chaotic as things are now.

NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 17-Mar-2019 13:21 Message #4737028
If I remember correctly in 2010 the Lib Dems said (about proposed coalition).
Heart is with Labour, but the numbers are with the Conservative.

Labour would have needed Lib Dems plus another party to form a coalition.
Del Boy Cameron convinced Clegg to lead the Lib Dems to the political wilderness.
Killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
He got to cripple a political rival and the Lib Dems, while being prime minister.

Cushtie Bon Chance Nidders.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 17-Mar-2019 15:57 Message #4737032
There is some rumour now that May might not put forward her proposal for the 3rd time. In which case …. ???

Leave with no deal on the 29th. Their attempts to quash this are unconstitutional, how can they do it. I see there is a large Leave march coming down from Sunderland. That must be a couple of hundred miles.
Bewildered  Female  Norfolk 17-Mar-2019 16:01 Message #4737033
Simple question
do you believe in democracy or not...leave meant leave with or without a deal
the scaremongering about a no deal brexit is laughable and WRONG
no deal mean WTO rules
no crashing out...for every doom merchant there is a HEY ITS GOOD merchant ...but the biased press /tv do not cover



and Lyn,,, i will not even comment on your comparison to buying a jumper and taking it back.

A vote is a vote
if you want to live under under the rule of the EU then thats up to you.

but I dont. simples...
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Mar-2019 18:04 Message #4737034
If you believe in democracy then why not have a second vote? How can more democracy be a bad thing? We were told that a deal would be easy, the easiest thing possible, they need us more than we need them and all that stuff. We have a general election every 5 years or so and we get to chose whether to stay with the current government or have something different, why are people not allowed to change thier minds about this? I know some people have changed thier minds, who feel lied to and betrayed.
barney  Male  Surrey 17-Mar-2019 18:35 Message #4737039
If there is another vote they will try and stitch us up with how they word it and how many questions are on the voting form so as to split the vote in favour of remain.
If there is another vote it should be just two options remain or leave.
If there was another vote and remain win it do us leavers then get to challenge it and have another vote ?.
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 17-Mar-2019 18:44 Message #4737040
Why not, like I say we get to chose a government every 5 years or so, why not whether we leave the EU? At least if the subject is revisited at a later date then they might have an actual plan we could vote for or against.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 17-Mar-2019 20:24 Message #4737046
Rees-Mogg and Johnson etc stitched up the original vote. It's obvious because many referred to what they read on the bus...or misread on the bus. A play on words that many did not see the devil in the detail.

Leave might win on the second vote, but at least far more would be aware of the implications, such as farmers losing EU subsidies (just been on Countryfile).
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 17-Mar-2019 20:26 Message #4737047

There is nothing simple about it.

And yes, a vote is a vote to confirm once people have had a chance to reconsider, now more is known about it, that it was not simple after all.
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 17-Mar-2019 20:37 Message #4737048
To carry out a second referendum before the first one has been implemented is not democracy. It is changing the result because you don't like it. It is going against the electorate regardless of their wining and their being told the result would be implemented.

It would be the same as changing the result of a general election because you didn't like it, and before the voted in party had even taken office.
Bewildered  Female  Norfolk 17-Mar-2019 21:01 Message #4737049
OMG so in an election if the vote is close do we ask for another vote...

The vote was taken,, the vote was LEAVE,... in a democratic country that mean LEAVE,,,

WHAT is so great about remaining in the EU with all whats to come...

AGAIN do you like. want agree with the LISBON Treaty ? WELL?

I must admit , France, Italy and Greece are doing so well, and the peoples are sooo happy , I could be wrong... !
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 17-Mar-2019 21:21 Message #4737050
According to Portillo. if May's deal does not get through parliament, they will vote to cancel Brexit.
May is only trying again if there is enough support for her deal.

I think they will stop no deal saying because they have already voted to reject it.

But they will reject the 2016 referendum, because they did not like the result.

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