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Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
15-Mar-2019 07:20 Message #4736911
"Corbyn is taking a much longer view but people expect him to react and jump.He's got his reasons. He doesn't really want it to come to another vote ...yet. Once that's agreed we've looked at the tension we need to keep up and not cave in. It's almost like a real life poker game. "

Ha ha and this is the bloke who stands there and criticises May for running down the clock and risking people's jobs, homes, livelihoods blah blah blah. I can't believe an NHS fanatic like you is happy for your leader to be playing poker with it and the vulnerable poor people who rely on it for their lives.
Anyway, I thought all of your members voted for a second referendum as Labour policy?
He is a joke, the whole lot of them are a joke...
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
15-Mar-2019 07:54 Message #4736912
Michael Portillo thinks the EU will refuse an extension.
And parliament would then vote to cancel Brexit.
That would mean that all MP's that defied democracy, would be on a list.
They would then expect people to vote for them at the next DEMOCRATIC election?
Also Liz Kendall commented on Labour largely abstaining in the 2nd referendum vote in parliament.
Saying It is not the right time.
Is there a right time to defy democracy?
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
15-Mar-2019 10:05 Message #4736921
I heard a brilliant quip from Angus Robertson on QT last night, when the vote for a second referendum was before th house a shiver ran along the opposition front bench looking for a spine to crawl up.

We're two weeks away from Brexit day, how long before Corbyn thinks its right to support a second referendum that is his parties democraticaly decided position?

I think the best thing would be to rescind Article 50, go away have a leadership contest for both main parties, (the LibDems are having on anyway in may), then a GE, then put together a cross party group that engages with devolved assemblies, local governments, trade unions, business and any other interested parties to find what sort of Brexit is agreeble and workable then go back to the EU and invoke Article 50 again. We should be going to them saying 'this is what we're doing, what are you going to do?', instead of going there empty handed with a begging bowl asking them to sort it out for us.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
15-Mar-2019 11:33 Message #4736929
"I can't believe an NHS fanatic like you is happy for your leader to be playing poker with it and the vulnerable poor people who rely on it for their lives. "

Why am I not surprised some people here think your comment is excellent.

What makes me an "NHS fanatic"?
I'd love to know.
I am employed by the NHS and a front line worker. Does that make me "fanatic"?

As for your comments on the vulnerable. Don't make me laugh.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
15-Mar-2019 11:43 Message #4736931
All I can say is, Corbyn is one crap poker player - he insisted on removing the trump card of "no deal" from the negotiator's armoury.
The EU, along with many others are very fearful of no deal, so why would any decent poker player want to remove it as a negotiating tool?
It looks to me like Corbyn blinked first...
Bewildered  Female  Norfolk
15-Mar-2019 11:56 Message #4736933
When the vote was to LEAVE

why has so much air time been given to remoaners when the votes said OUT !!!

Out on the 29/03/19 not if theres a deal done...OUT with or without a deal, !!

Defy democracy and this country will no longer be looked at in the same way and people will be living in a dictatorship run by politicians soon to Eurocrats

We are a laughing stock to the EU council and god knows what the ordinary people of Europe think...That they are also lost and will never be able to leave
As for the rest of the world, probably thinking what a pathetic undemocratic country the UK has become .
I am disgusted with the TV coverage of debates or interviews all baised and in favour of remain or a soft brexit ...
And disgusted at the cocky arrogance of politicians voting against their own constituents !!
I am disgusted annoyed and ashamed of all the traitorous politicians
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
15-Mar-2019 12:21 Message #4736934

It isn't just Corbyn who can see the sense of not playing poker with British business who are far too near a potential no deal deadline that could cost jobs and businesses. He has been listening and meeting with them.

The CBI also agrees with Corbyn, as do Philip Hammond and Greg Clark, in their recent briefing of 300 business leaders that was seen to undermine May's stance on the situation.

You keep making assumptions about what I think and do, but even though I voted Remain, I have said, I don't really mind. I also don't mind a no -deal Brexit but I am keen to listen to how this would affect people outside my experiences.

What I do mind, are people who judge on black and white with no grey in between which is what life actually is about.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
15-Mar-2019 12:23 Message #4736935

So if you wanted a red woollen jumper and you assumed the red one you liked was woollen but found it was acrylic, wouldn't you want to take it back and check the labels next time?
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
15-Mar-2019 12:47 Message #4736937
"It isn't just Corbyn who can see the sense of not playing poker with British business"

So why is he doing it?
Why is he risking poor people's jobs, security, livelihoods and futures?
Why didn't he and his party vote for a second referendum and let us poor people decide?
A referendum will take 6 months to organise, so it's not like it's going to happen next week.
We expect the Tories to think of only themselves and sod the rest, that's why they are Tories, but Corbyn, surely not?...
barney  Male  Surrey
15-Mar-2019 13:39 Message #4736940
Trump advised May on how to handle the EU but she ignored him.

When Trump met the EU he laid his deal on the table and said this is what's going to happen. The EU said no so he got on his plane and left.
The next day Juncker had to fly to Washington and beg for a deal.

That's the only way to deal with the EU.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
15-Mar-2019 14:01 Message #4736941
This is a quote copied and pasted from twitter..
"Leo Varadkar has said he and the EU should be “generous” to the UK."

Yes folks, that's where we have ended up, heading back to the EU like a modern day Oliver Twist, begging for more.
I voted leave all those years ago, but to be honest I have forgotten why I did so and would happily see article 50 revoked and put an end (of sorts) to this national humiliation...
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
15-Mar-2019 14:45 Message #4736943
The ultimate humiliation would be to revoke Article 50 and go back with our tail between our legs, touching cap and letting them win yet again with doing as they say and turning yet another referendum to how they wanted the result to go. Where the country did the EUs bidding. I don't think so.
barney  Male  Surrey
15-Mar-2019 17:27 Message #4736949
There are a lot of angry people out there.

Yesterday on Facebook there were a couple of hundred comments and the majority were people expressing their anger at what's happened.
Talk of civil war, yellow vests protests were a just some of them.
Unusual for the British to get fired up like this.
As I said before I think the MPs have seriously misjudged it this time and even if it calms down it will be felt at the next election.
terry  Male  West Yorkshire
15-Mar-2019 19:29 Message #4736954
This is what confuses me about us brits Barney, we all know most of our politicians are liars, clandestine thieves and generaly not nice people (I did say 'most') yet we're happy to accept all the crap they pass down to us. Every now and again we throw a paddy and shout and cry, then quickly forget and carry on as if nothing happened. I suspect for all the wailing and screaming of this we'll still have many of the same politicians in place in two years time and in five to ten years time we'll have forgotten all about this and the same people will be making the same decisions whilst creaming the same amount of money from whatever pots they make to replace the ones they've already drained dry, at our expense.
I'm hoping I'm wrong and things will have changed dramatically, whichever path we end up going down. It would be interesting to see if the talk of yellow vests and all the rest becomes action and not just talk.

NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
15-Mar-2019 19:49 Message #4736955
All the above is part of the reason Terry.
Politicians have got used to getting away with things, but this is different.
Apart from the actual vote, look at the arrogance that followed.
9 months before they activate article 50. All 2 years used up on article 50, with very little actually done.
If they are unable to get out of doing something, they delay it until they can.
But stopping Brexit is a real problem, because nothing works, it all backfires.
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia
15-Mar-2019 20:56 Message #4736958
"This is what confuses me about us brits Barney, we all know most of our politicians are liars, clandestine thieves and generaly not nice people"

I don't believe or agree with that at all.
I just think that with Brexit they have completely lost their minds, in fact I think the issue is too complicated for them to deal with.
To deal with it requires cooperation and compromise between all sides and all viewpoints, but we as a nation are not programmed to do politics that way.
It's not just our MP's, it's our media and us too, we all see cross party working as an alien concept. It sounds great until we try it and then we get a Lib Dem situation and a party gets destroyed for cooperating with "the enemy".
Whether Brexit changes the way we do politics remains to be seen, but somehow I doubt it...
fosy  Male  Leicestershire
15-Mar-2019 22:43 Message #4736962
i was gutted when they voted to remove our strongest bargaining chip from the table.

the last time i felt so strongly was over the poll tax, and i marched and played "hard to get" when having to pay.

i am now ready to march again, and if it turns into riots so what, its the only thing that will focus the minds of politicians.

sometimes, the french example is one to follow.
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
16-Mar-2019 00:45 Message #4736963
Hiero, the Lib Dems were destroyed because they lied about University tuition fees.
In other words breaking their own manifesto pledges.
The Lib Dems destroyed themselves.
Brexit is a bigger issue, it is ironic that it all started with Cameron needing to stop UKIP.
The jokers in Westminster have been so poor, that the new Brexit party will win a lot of support.
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands
16-Mar-2019 08:18 Message #4736975
*To deal with it requires cooperation and compromise between all sides and all viewpoints, but we as a nation are not programmed to do politics that way. *

The lack of coming together to get things done without point scoring is what's getting my goat in the whole situation. At some point they have to sit and talk candidly ... it's worse than watching the younger kids at work trying to organise themselves to solve a problem as a group.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
16-Mar-2019 09:50 Message #4736978


I found I voted your post 20:56 excellent and agree with it.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
16-Mar-2019 10:00 Message #4736979
"Hiero, the Lib Dems were destroyed because they lied about University tuition fees. "

Clegg didn't lie. There's a big difference between blatantly lying being misled or mistaken.

Clegg was not in power, Cameron was, and it was not in the Conservative manifesto. Even though they were in coalition, the LibDems got very little of what they wanted, or it was somewhat distorted.

Cameron gave Clegg titbits like free school meals at certain age groups and tried to make it look as if Clegg got what he wanted on Proportional Representation, but they lost that because it wasn't the real PR that Clegg advocated but a skewed version that meant Cameron could say he had allowed it, but then he hadn't really at all. Clegg was duped good and proper and his hands were tied into getting what he could at huge expense to the LibDems.

I'd have Clegg back at the drop of a hat, even more so that he has learned a huge lesson. I'm about to read his book which I bought last year.

For all people here harp on about me worshipping Corbyn, I voted for Clegg and Lib Dem, but in their demise, I was searching for a new politics and Corbyn came up with what I was hoping for, my plans, not
barney  Male  Surrey
16-Mar-2019 13:41 Message #4736985
So JustLyn how do you square your admiration for Clegg now. When Clegg was in the coalition he said that big corporations such as Google and Facebook should pay more tax.
Now that Clegg works for Facebook on reputedly 4 million dollars a year and lives in a 7 million dollar mansion do you think he still feels they should pay more tax.

One other interesting point when Cameron wanted to come down hard with long sentences for knife crimes Clegg opposed it.
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
16-Mar-2019 14:39 Message #4736989
Ok Just Lynn, Nick Clegg broke his election pledge on tuition fees.
How is that not being dishonest? He expected to get away with it.

Gosh its not just Jeremy that walks on water in your world!
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
16-Mar-2019 16:20 Message #4736992

Thanks for the polite question.

I don't resent anyone or Clegg earning a lot of money or what Mansion he might live in. He probably does agree to pay more tax, but since we haven't asked him I couldn't fairly judge on what you think he might do.

I also don't agree with long sentences as they are pointless and waste a lot of resources so yes, I agreed with Clegg on that point. Last week (you might have seen it), a weatherman whose name escapes me interrupted a debate on that very subject based on his background and experience.

Think about it logically. If you were a criminal, would a long sentence really deter you?
That philosophy is based on the principle that the criminal thinks he/she will get caught, which of course they don't. So if a crime had 3 months or 3 years or 30 years, the crime would still be committed. It's just that our prisons would be even more full and overcrowded, even more intensely populated so even more criminal activity and exchanges.

It all brings us back to the source. Why are criminals doing this in the first place?
Of course, we will never stop all of it, but don't you think it odd that since we have many more people losing benefits and ending up homeless, many have to get into criminal gangs to survive. It isn't a choice for the vulnerable. That's why we have the County Lines, hitting our suburban and leafy villages to find the vulnerable.

You might be sick of hearing about it but my son could be one of those. Apparently, a high amount of adults in prison are undiagnosed autism, an easy target to bully, then it is those people who get caught and locked up on behalf of doing the dirty work for gang leaders. These people are themselves victims, and until we get support in at ground level and stop demonising those who look and act differently, the problem will keep recurring.

We need to reopen the youth centres, get them whilst they are young. Maybe bring back a new form of National Service that is socially and environmentally based rather than a war that will never be won in a nuclear age.

Think deeper, more to the core of the cause than just dealing with the consequences.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
16-Mar-2019 16:25 Message #4736993


You promised your child a new bike. The promise was made in good faith.

But you didn't realise the bike was going to cost what you didn't have in your bank account. Someone else who had access spent it on a new car.

Don't you just explain and say sorry?
It wasn't a lie, your intention was to buy a bike. It's not dishonest not to give something you realised you had no power to give.

I'd say Boris Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg have been more dishonest in their leave campaign than Clegg ever was.

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