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Male
barney  Male  Surrey 14-Mar-2019 14:31 Message #4736865
JustLyn,

Well when the going got tough Heidi Allen jumped ship and ran off to join that bunch of loser's called the Independence party.

I don't have a problem with Rees Mogg etc making lots of money. People like him are generating wealth and paying tax, its what drives the economy. Someone has to do it.

I have said for years that one minute Joe Bloggs could be just a man in the street, the next he is elected and in charge of a Ministry.
Ok people will say he has Civil servants to run it but after working for the Home Office for 34yrs I can say that most of them could not run a piss up in a brewery.
Female
Bewildered  Female  Norfolk 14-Mar-2019 15:05 Message #4736867
Next

Goodbye to democracy,

Lets have another, no another or another vote

then whatever is voted lets stay in

Roll on the implementation of the Lisbon Treaty,,,

Its better together haaa haaa haaa

god help the youth of tomorrow

Mind you, the EU is wonderful its EU states are stable, happy, prosperous, the peoples are joyous and employed , and the economies are thriving...the is no problem in Spain, Greece or Germany
its all utopia in the EU
what silly berks would want to leave...and come on all...they have been so polite and helpful and love the UK
whats to want to leave
There are no Yellow vests in France anymore,... they are all happy as Larry... after all nothing has been on the news about the protests
so France is wonderful... and Germany's economy is not flat lining,,, nahhh just hearsay... !!

Feeling the love for the EU, the Lisbon Treaty and the un elected wonderful people such as Jonker and his pals...

sorry... im so happy ,,,just having a mad moment,,,ooops
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 14-Mar-2019 15:19 Message #4736868
What happens next? there will be a vote for an extension, might be today even. It's getting very close to the date, of departure.

I think a no-deal exit. A long extension involves taking part in the EU elections, it's would be utter madness.

We have to leave, it was a fully pledged democratic vote. What they are doing will be the undoing of 'Grt. Britain' as a globally respected power. Makes you wonder just who is behind the remain campaign, that can influence such persistence in overruling the Referendum result.
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 14-Mar-2019 15:49 Message #4736870
I see some are calling for another referendum again. I have always been dead against this but if we did and the remain vote won we could keep going to court with various challenges etc and keep demanding another vote.
But knowing this devious lot of MPs they would word it in such a way there is no way leave could win.

13/03/2019 the day democracy died.

We have long memories though and will not forget or forgive those that betrayed us.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 16:19 Message #4736872
What about May keep having her Meaningful vote for the 3rd time and possibly a 4th, when that has been voted down twice already. The terms do not appear to have been changed, whereas a new vote on Brexit the terms would be more clear to many who choose to vote.

People complain about voting again until you get the answer you want, but isn't May hypocritical in this issue?

Barney,

Heidi Allen jumped ship, not because of Brexit, but what she learned was fact after experiencing what she voted for in cutting benefits after gaining experience in Frank Field's field. She has been very open about it which I give her credit for. A good example of the statement you made on experienced people judging on what affects business.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 16:25 Message #4736873
Gilpin,

The only thing Britain was great on in that era, was from colonisation, slavery and pinching countries that didn't belong to us and sticking their wealth in our museums.

It's time to move forward and learn from the past.

The irony is that England itself is a consequence of French Norman and Scandinavian Viking invasions., then Romans. Few of us are purely English, we never really existed. Just a load of mongrels, hopefully, domesticated and kinder but not always apparent so far.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 14-Mar-2019 16:38 Message #4736874
I was talking in the present tense. We are a globally recognised power with one of the largest economies (2nd in the EU) 5th in the world, and we are respected for being a long established democracy.

Harping on about the past does not change the present, and history is relative to every country in the world. The great Roman Empire was brutal, the Ottomans, the Hapsburgs, none of them particularly admirable, they were product of the times, and the lifestyle, as was imperialism.

As for what makes up Britain, migratory habits of human beings is no different the world over. We all come out of Africa right?
Male
barney  Male  Surrey 14-Mar-2019 17:01 Message #4736876
Knife crime has risen drastically.

17 .4 million people knifed in the back.
Female
Bewildered  Female  Norfolk 14-Mar-2019 18:29 Message #4736879
Barney

exactly.

democracy has died ..
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 18:32 Message #4736880
What has never lived, is a sensible voting system where people are proportionally considered, especially in a binary result that is so close.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 18:48 Message #4736881
Gilpin,

Doesn't considering the past enable us to not repeat the mistakes?

I'm not religious, but I do wonder if humans have a destiny, it is to find a way to co-exist with all that nature has, including wildlife.
I like reading or watching the programmes of Prof Alice Roberts. I'm just on the 3rd chapter of her book "Tamed". Her recent documentaries followed how all humans originated in Africa.

I think what the UK is struggling with now, as Sweden and Germany are, are the huge influx of numbers into a social system. An exchange of culture used to be a possible source of curiosity (or get eaten), but now, some cultures feel invaded and overwhelmed at the expense of their own.

Many who voted Brexit, on hearing many interviewed, state immigration as their reason, but they appear to not realise that the immigration they feel overwhelmed by is not actually from Europeans but a collection of International immigration.
Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 14-Mar-2019 18:51 Message #4736882
Lyn you forgot that the Anglo-Saxons were invaders too, or at least invited at first to come and live here after the last lot of invaders, the Romans left, you could say that the only real Brits are the Welsh and Scots, but I do think its a bit beside the point raking up history that old. I do agree with you about colonialism the United Kingdom is a product of colonialism and the Welsh and Scots still feel like colonies and second class citizens. I agree that FPTP isn't decomcracy and to me nor is a party system where MPs have to choose to serve the elecorate at the expense of their party or the other way around, no wonder people are fed up and don't feel represented.

Well a delay has been voted for in the last few minutes, whether the EU will agree to it remains to be seen, but the vote on a second referendum has been defeated quite heavily, this time, it may come up again. I think TM has cloth ears thinking about putting her deal forward a third time with no changes and now they're talking about a fourth time if its kicked out again.
Male
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire 14-Mar-2019 18:51 Message #4736883
How on earth could that happen Lynn?
The vote was leave or remain, how can you have any other option?
It was also a no deal vote, no options were mentioned.
We see some MP's on television cheering when the possibility of a second referendum is mentioned.
When MP's are against democracy, we have a problem.

We are all ready for enlightenment, sorry I mean to be educated.

Who used enlightenment?
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 14-Mar-2019 19:03 Message #4736886
We don't repeat the mistakes made in the past if we can avoid them. We (C21) do not have the same laws and human rights as those in the past, I'd say we have already learned from history.

Immigration from the EU is not controlled, they can walk over the border as they please without any questions asked in as many numbers as they want. Commonwealth immigration is controlled.

Ok, well I'm not with humans having a destiny. It would smack of …. the universe revolves around us? But respect for wildlife and the planet is high priority. We don't have the right to treat it as ours alone. We need to stop endangering native wildlife drastically, and also, come to that, stop overpopulating the planet itself, and overusing its resources.

Female
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd 14-Mar-2019 19:10 Message #4736887
Immigration from the EU has fallen and that from the rest of the world has risen, many who voted leave wanted a cap on EU immigration so as we could more people from outside the EU.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 19:30 Message #4736888
Gilpin,

Maybe a different thread, but destiny is maybe a bit finite. I certainly don't think the universe revolves around humans but some seem to think it does.

I suppose not so diverse from the thread, but I do think a less economically focussed society might be more considerate of wildlife and plant.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 19:49 Message #4736891
NotHermit,

It was a mistake to have such a binary vote. We should be able to say it was poorly thought out as people's reasons were far more complex in their own heads of what Leave meant. Some do not even understand that intertwinement of 40 years needs some unravelling. A Custom's Union would retain the certainty they need to continue to do business but that by some Brexitieers is seen as not really leaving.

We all only have opinions, and mine is a soft Brexit means we leave as per the 52%, but those who are badly affected by leaving that had not been considered would have time to negotiate their particular issues.

I expect some MP's are not voting according to their constituents but I'm not that cynical that lumps everyone into a barrel as all operating the same. The MPs are themselves being subject to a democratic process so why are they against democracy as a whole if they are involved in a vote?
Female
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 14-Mar-2019 22:14 Message #4736896
Just Lynn ... I don't think it was a mistake ( i don't agree with it though) ...
TM wanted to remain but has to carry out the people's will ... leave ...
She's agreed a 'deal' that will effectively keep us in the EU while looking as though we've left ... she wins.
She has effectively (after tonights votes) back all the leave MP's into a very tight corner ... as now 'no deal' has been voted off the table and the Eu isn't for changing, the only option now is to accept her 'deal' or drag this out forever more.

It's almost 'checkmate'.

I don't see how the extension the will now seek will be enough time to sort the mess out. I've been watching the BBC Parliament channel ... anything that hinders her getting this deal through has been booted into touch today ... the free vote she promised her MP's yesterday was 3-line whipped (which pissed of a fair few of her party members). The Speaker gave the go ahead for a vote on a ruling to take the power from the Conservatives to the whole commons and it was booted into touch too ... this woman is less for turning than Maggie was.

I used to kind of admire her grit for being determined to see it through to the bitter end ... now I despise her utterly for being so arrogant to think that other ideas are not worth listening to, for not considering anything other than that which keeps us in while looking like we're out. Did she really think the Joe Blogs wouldn't be able to see what she was doing?
I hope the majority of these MP's lose their bloody seats.
Male
Hierophant  Male  East Anglia 14-Mar-2019 22:15 Message #4736897
It really has become pathetic with constant voting and endless amendments - they had a vote for a second referendum tonight and Labour abstained, then half an hour later Corbyn stood up and said Labour are willing to do whatever it takes blah blah blah and have a second referendum to protect people's jobs and businesses blah blah blah. Well why didn't you vote for it you dickhead!?
Stephen Barclay stood up as Brexit secretary and urged MP's to support the Government's bill then promptly voted against it himself.
The whole thing is beyond a joke and MP's have the front to say they are taking control because Theresa May is incompetent. Nobody is willing to commit to anything, they are merely playing games.
This really is not going to end well...
Female
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 14-Mar-2019 22:40 Message #4736898
Hiero ... that vote to take control was defeated ... I was absolutely gutted.

I hope they chuck her 'deal' out for a third time. Just the hypocrisy of it being presented 3 times gets my blood boiling ...no other failed vote subject has been allowed to be resubmitted and yet this one is coming up for it's third vote.

Don't get me started on Corbyn ... I really liked the guy at the last general election, but I wouldn't vote for him in a million years now. What was the point of abstaining and then announcing it's what they really wanted ... have I missed a trick somewhere?
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 22:45 Message #4736899
Clocky,
I too have been watching Parliament most of the day and agree with most of what you say.

I just think had we known what chaos would stem from a binary vote when individuals have such different agenda and now more insight, I think another vote is a good idea.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 22:57 Message #4736900
Corbyn is taking a much longer view but people expect him to react and jump. He's got his reasons. He doesn't really want it to come to another vote ...yet. Once that's agreed we've looked at the tension we need to keep up and not cave in. It's almost like a real life poker game.
Corbyn reluctantly is keeping a People's vote on the table, but only as a last resort, not to promote it like others are doing, hence why he didn't mention it in his speech.

I suspect he also knows more than you think, because he's had meetings with Juncker et al.

The funny thing being on many Labour news feeds is that half think he's plugging for Brexit and don't like it and others think his agenda is Remain and they don't like it.
Sometimes laying your cards on the table too soon comes back to bite you.
Female
Clocky  Female  the West Midlands 14-Mar-2019 23:05 Message #4736901
Corbyn has never been one to jump straight in without thinking ... that's what I liked about him ... he reminded me of my granddad :)

From what I understand he put his plans to those that matter in the EU and they liked it.

What I don't understand is ... if the EU are not for turning, and this is the only deal on the table... there's no point him even speaking to them ... he'd just get the same line that TM has been fed.
Female
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex 14-Mar-2019 23:05 Message #4736902
Mrs May. Another vote on the Withdrawal submission. You know the DUP will knock it for six. How many ways to run down the clock. Something more imaginative please. They remind me of scurrying ants with all their amendments, like the Titanic that has a great big gaping hole in its side and will sink.

No 2nd referendum, that's because they know they will lose.
Female
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire 14-Mar-2019 23:10 Message #4736903
Clocky,

He knows something they don't.
The Independent
"Following the vote, Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn reiterated his support for a People's Vote.
He said: "Today I reiterate my conviction that a deal can be agreed based on our alternative plan that can command support across the House.

"I also reiterate our support for a People's Vote - not as a political point-scoring exercise but as a realistic option to break the deadlock.""


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