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Is truth no longer fit for purpose as ...

A property of being in accord with fact or reality?

Clocky  Female  the West Midlands
24-Feb-2019 20:49 Message #4736010
where I referred to psychopathy. People who lack conscience and hence people not too bothered about truth.

I see where that would fit an individual ...but what about corporate lies such as in misleading advertising and misleading research?
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
24-Feb-2019 21:54 Message #4736023

It's all about spectrums, variations in ethics, maybe a sense of entitlement in some very intelligent leaders, but have the drive to be economically successful at whatever cost to others. I.e. Lack of emotional intelligence and how their behaviour affects others, not necessarily bad people, but have an absence of awareness of how their actions can have a negative effect on others. Entwined in the academic success we might have:

Lack of awareness.
Lack of emotional intelligence.
Psychopathy and lack of conscience.

For example, in medicine and nursing, there is a know ethos of bullying, yet both are supposed to be caring professions and medicine, in particular, entrants need a series of top grade A levels.

So if you have a corporate leader, where apparently psychopaths often infiltrate, they would create a work ethic that is geared to abusing rather than nurturing the staff. Bad behaviour is also infectious. Look at the treatment of vulnerable patients recently because whole teams learn to look the other way. Look at Milgram Experiment and how normal people would torture someone because they think it is the thing they are supposed to do.

One example:

Another writer I am currently listening to a second time is Daniel Goleman.

Dr Robert Hare "Snakes in Suits".
Beach  Male  Dorset
1-Mar-2019 15:29 Message #4736357

So much for a discussion on truth. :-(
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
1-Mar-2019 17:07 Message #4736358

It is connected to truth and conversations maybe develop along the lines of what people read into them?

Isn't the opposite of truth deceit, in which case the people who have little or no conscience do not care about truth and set out to deceive?

But also we may have people naive to the truth. They are not deceitful, but kind of deceiving themselves because they have no vision or awareness.

I'm trying to recall who I heard discussing this on the radio this morning but a few hours have passed since then.
Beach  Male  Dorset
1-Mar-2019 17:24 Message #4736359
It's perfectly OK. :-)

I'm just tied up right now and couldn't give the thread the attention I wanted to. :-( My fault, not yours.

I will say; Remember Prime Minister May PROMISING not to have an election ... and then going on to have one?

If, for example, she doe same by denying people the Brexit she promised in a few weeks, wouldn't that be another example of extreme duplicity?

And with Trump being proven to have lied over 14,000 times while in office, shouldn't we be worried/concerned/disconcerted that here in the 21st century, we are losing something very, valuable indeed?

A thing called INTEGRITY?

There. That's what I wanted to add to the conversation. :-)
Beach  Male  Dorset
1-Mar-2019 17:36 Message #4736360
BTW. Yes. You, and others make valuable points, (as you just did above), about enlightening folk. :-)

Forgive my intervention. You are quite right. None of us own a thread and it is healthy to broaden out a topic. Hell, I'm the last person to want to stop that enjoyable practice, doing the same just about all the time myself!

I blame my workshop/office refurb stealing my time ... daring to interfere with my enjoyable MSE pursuits. :-) x
Beach  Male  Dorset
1-Mar-2019 17:49 Message #4736361
Oh. And I lied just then.

According to fact checking websites, Trump has only made 7645 'false or misleading claims', not 14,000. :-) (The latter figure was mentioned on LBC but my own checks have now amended my own false claim. lol
wonderoushen  Female  Gwynedd
1-Mar-2019 18:49 Message #4736365
I think its very hard to make an honest mistake these days, making an honest mistake dosent' make one a liar, its like its getting harder to hae an accident when people are always looking for someone to blame. I think the fear of being seen to make an honest mistake makes people less likely to admit to being wrong, so they get all shouty and stick more firmly to their "mistake" and then it does become a lie, because they're knowingly repeating something untrue.

One phrase that really bugs me is "false facts", I always thought that the whole point about a fact was that it was something demonstrably true, there are beliefs that may or may not be true, there are uncomfortable truths and inconvienient truths and facts, but not false facts. I first heard this phrase comming from one of Trumps spokespeople about the number attending his inaugeration ceremony.
JustLyn  Female  Cheshire
1-Mar-2019 18:55 Message #4736366
WH, you beat me to it. I was about to mention how I spent ages explaining to my children, the difference between lying and being mistaken.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
3-Mar-2019 22:47 Message #4736463
Throughout history people have always told falsehoods, whether deliberately or not. But it is still worth trying to find out factual truths, which I spend a lot of time doing. (I use the phrase "factual truths" to distinguish from philosophical etc truths.)

Although Beach is interested in Quantum Mechanics, I'm surprised he hasn't yet raised problems with QM and "reality"!

In thread "Science and Religion more misunderstandings about creation" I have indicated some differences between lying and being mistaken.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Mar-2019 17:38 Message #4736474
Son-of-a-Beach: "Like the philosophers of ancient Greece"

In much more recent times (1819), John Keats' very Ode on a Grecian Urn ends with "Beauty is truth, truth beauty, —that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know." The poem is a wonderful description, but its end is silly and untrue in every point,

Bunnygirl: "As for the truth i can usually tell if someone who is lying. Plus i hate liars and con people."

Then you're cleverer than me.

Someone came to my house, offering to clean my windows, and he cleaned them for £25 and I gave him £5 tip.
The next day he cam again and offered to clean out my gutters for £80, and we shook hands on it. He said he needed to see someone, and he would return in 1 hour to clean the gutters. He asked me to lend him £40 so that he could buy petrol. I lent him £40, but he didn't return. He has ignored my texts and phone messages, even though they included me informing him of his car model and registration number that I had noted, and my remarking that it was a nasty way to repay a favour, and threatening to inform the police. That was over a week ago.

The cleverest conmen don't even let you be aware that you have been conned!

Lies and truths make good entertainment. Very often I got the answers wrong. You can find excerpts in YouTube,

(a) Many years ago there was a BBC2 show "Call My Bluff" in which an obscure word was given and had 3 panel members had to give 3 completely different definitions of it, and the other panel had to guess which was correct.

(b) I like BBC1's "Would I Lie to You?", in which a panel member is questioned about a personal experience or friend, and the opposite panel has to determine whether it is true or a lie.

(c) I very much like Radio 4's "The Unbelievable Truth", in which someone has to give a humorous talk on a subject, containing 5 truths and many lies, and the opponents have to spot the truths. (Like (b) it has David Mitchell.)

(d) Also I enjoy BBC2's "QI", in which apparent well known "facts" are found to be false. For example, Henry VIII did not have 6 wives.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
4-Mar-2019 21:33 Message #4736480
It could be said that Keats' Ode is a beautiful but its end contradicts its own statement "Beauty is truth, truth beauty"!

WH: "there are uncomfortable truths and inconvienient truths and facts, but not false facts. I first heard this phrase comming from one of Trumps spokespeople about the number attending his inaugeration ceremony"

The phrase used by Kellyanne Conway was "alternative facts" at a press conference on 22-Jan-17.

On 21-Jan-17 the White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said that Trump's inauguration had the "largest audience to ever witness an inauguration – period – both in person and around the globe". His figures for Washington Metro tickets showed that Trump exceeded Obama, whereas in fact the opposite was the case. He also gave incorrect figures for ground coverings.
The next day in NBC's "Meet the Press" TV journalist Chuck Todd talked with Counselor to the President Kellyanne Conway. The conversation is informative.
Todd: "I'm curious why President Trump chose yesterday to send out his press secretary to essentially litigate a provable falsehood when it comes to a small and petty thing like inaugural crowd size. I guess my question to you is why do that?"
A little later Todd said "you did not answer the question, why did the president send out his press secretary, who's not just the spokesperson for Donald Trump. He could be-- He also serves as the spokesperson for all of America at times. He speaks for all of the country at times. Why put him out there for the very first time in front of that podium to utter a provable falsehood? It's a small thing. But the first time he confronts the public it's a falsehood?"
Then Conway complained about a false press story which had been promptly corrected.
Todd: "you did not answer the question"
Conway: "I did answer--"
Todd: "No you did not."
Conway: "-your question."
Todd: "You did not--"
Conway: "Yes I did."
Todd: "-answer the question of why the president asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium for the first time and utter a falsehood? Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office--"
Conway: "No it doesn't."
Todd: "--on day one."
Conway: "Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck. What-- You're saying it's a falsehood. And they're giving Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave alternative facts to that. But the point remains--"
Todd: "Wait a minute-- Alternative facts? Alternative facts? Four of the five facts he uttered, the one thing he got right was Zeke Miller. Four of the five facts he uttered were just not true. Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."

Many people described the phrase "alternative facts" as "Orwellian", and in the next 4 days the sales of George Orwell's 1984 increased by 9,500% andn it became's number 1 best seller.

The book 1984 includes the Ministry of Truth which gives out lies. Like Trump does, and he continues repeating them even when informed that they are false. Search for Washington Post article "Meet the Bottomless Pinocchio, a new rating for a false claim repeated over and over again".
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
4-Mar-2019 22:13 Message #4736482
Sorry you were conned, but I keep trying to tell you.
You go round the houses too much, so someone comes to yours.
You are a very intelligent person, but you miss the obvious too often.

I will nip round and clean your gutters for free.
All you have to do is PM me with full bank details.

Glad to be of service.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
6-Mar-2019 09:06 Message #4736514
Someone had to come to my house, as I didn't want to take my windows and gutters round to his house.

You're right that I sometimes miss the obvious.

An example is in thread "Northern Ireland and EU The solution?", please explain clearly what you say is "The border would be a simple issue, easily resolved. ... Its simples ... it really is simples ... You are just over complicating, it for the sake of it".

Thank you for your offer to clean my gutters for free. It is incredibly generous, but I must pay you. At least for your journey time and cost to travel from Derbyshire to Brighton and back. I'll pay you £1,000. I trust you not to take more than that from my bank account, so here are my bank details. (Everybody else, close your eyes.)
Name of account: Jeff, Sort code 12-34-56, Account number 98765432, PIN 1234, and I've just set its password to nowpermitnothermit.
As is customary, you must come and do the work before you have payment.

Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
6-Mar-2019 11:41 Message #4736520
Truth in the C21. Don't think it's changed much to be honest since the ancient philosophers view on it. I'll go with Plato's Theory of Forms. Shadows of the truth, are presented more often with missing parts!
Gilpin  Female  Middlesex
6-Mar-2019 12:49 Message #4736522
Then again it could have been the allegory of the caves. Plato having a lot of these theories. I'm sure someone of here will know.

The truth is not always as it appears, what people see is what other people want them to see, and often present it as, blurred enough for them to get away with.
BunnyGirl  Female  Buckinghamshire
6-Mar-2019 14:44 Message #4736524
So jeff what is wrong if i am cleverer than you in some things?

I am not as they say just a Pretty Face lol
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
6-Mar-2019 16:44 Message #4736528
The message is never employ someone you do not know, or know of.
Never pay money in advance. There have even been threads on mse about this.
The bank details you sent do not work, so I aint coming.
You talk about trust and you give me false details?
In your post that I commented on, paying in advance for work (rather silly).
Then you tell us you are clever (noted registration number).
Have you checked this number to see if it is genuine?
If you contacted the police, what exactly would you expect them to do?

The good news is it is only forty quid, you were lucky he was only an apprentice scammer.
But learn from it and make sure it does not happen again, cos it will be a lot more next time.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
6-Mar-2019 18:35 Message #4736538

There's nothing wrong you being cleverer than me in some things. Indeed in thread "Quantum entanglement theory" I after Andromeda posted to you "I hope I don't sound too envious of your young looks as I think you look lovely. I did laugh at your interest in quantum physics" I posted "I trust that you're not saying that brains and beauty can't go together!", meaning I know that they can go together.

And after you posted "why do we need to know about Quantrum Entanglement theory? Coz it seems to me it has no relative meaning whatsoever in our everyday life. I suppose it is science so hence i will go and hide in a corner ha ha", I posted to you "Don't hide in a corner. It's very good to ask questions, and other people's questions and answers and comments are welcome. For example, spin has been mentioned repeatedly, and if anyone wants me to indicate simple multiplications and additions about it, the results are amazing.".

I would have liked to have posted more about the subject, (again not copy/pasting), such as experiments involving quantum entanglement suggesting that tiny particles seeming to read our minds and go back in time, but I don't know if people would be interested in the details.

Sadly not enough people ask questions about what people have posted, such as the above or (in this thread) "Henry VIII did not have 6 wives".


They're not false bank details, trust me. They will work after you have done the job, so please come. Of course I won't pay you before you do the job - you advise me not to.

I photographed his car. I doubt that he uses false number plates. I have put off calling the police, but I'll email them soon. Even though it's a relatively small amount, maybe they'll match that car number on their database with one associated with bigger crimes, or using his ladders he might get into some houses uninvited and the police might find useful my description of him, (but I didn't take a photo of him).

Over the years numerous people owe me a total of many thousands of pounds because I've been too kind and trusting. I have won all my court cases about them, but the bastards have always ignored court orders and disappeared.
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
7-Mar-2019 10:46 Message #4736562
If you do contact the police, check the registration yourself first.
DVLA vehicle enquiries will match the number to a vehicle, so if its a blue Ford, and you saw a white Vauxhall?

From what you have said I would be surprised if the vehicle is not SORN.

Stop being so trusting of people.

Remember I need full bank details, otherwise I am unable to help you out.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
8-Mar-2019 11:32 Message #4736619
Thank you for your advice.

I gave you my bank details on 6 March at 9:06am. In case you're suspicious about the numbers, it really is MY bank: Bank of Jeff Ltd, which is not publicised and I only disclose to people I can trust to keep it secret, I set it up because I'm extremely wealthy.
My money comes from my best-selling books. As I use noms de plume, I can't reveal my publishing names nor the book titles., but the subjects include:-
- How to write a book about how to write a book about how to write a book ...;
- How to give away ALL your money and still have a lot of money left;
- How to make a fortune cleaning windows and gutters;
- The calculus of different types of integrity;
- The purpose of having a purpose;
- The reality of reality;
- The truth about the truth about the truth ...

That last book PROVES that I'm completely honest. I trust you to clean my gutters, and you can trust me.

To reassure you that I'm genuine, I'll increase my offer to £2,000 to come and clean my gutters. Many people in Brighton know where I live, so when you get to Brighton just ask some people in any street where Jeff lives and you'll get an answer.
When you've finished the work I trust you not to take any more than £2,000, from the millions of pounds in that bank account. Look, to give you even more reassurance, I'll make it £3,000.
NotHermit  Male  Derbyshire
8-Mar-2019 18:16 Message #4736631
I spoke to a friend in Brighton, he has been looking for you this afternoon.
You are not actually well known are you?
The only lead he got was from the local toy shop, said you keep buying junior chemistry sets, and say you are building a nuclear power station.
The shop keeper said He never shuts up so I sell him any old carp
Apparently he sold you a star wars figure, and told you it was a Geiger counter.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
27-Mar-2019 22:33 Message #4737649
In case anybody is interested in how many wives Henry VIII had:-

Wikipedia says "In legal terms, King Henry VIII of England had only three wives, because three of his putative marriages were annulled. ... However, in common parlance, the so-called wives of Henry VIII were the six queens consort wedded to Henry between 1509 and his death in 1547."

The QI Book of General Ignorance says "We make it two.
Or four if you're a catholic.

Henry's fourth marriage to Anne of Cleves was annulled. This is very different from divorce. Legally, it means the marriage never took place. ...
The Pope declared Henry's second marriage to Anne Boleyn illegal, because the King was still married to his first wife, Catherine of Aragon.
Henry, as head of the new Church of England, declared in turn that his marriage was invalid on the legal ground that a man could not sleep with his brother's widow. The King cited the Old Testament, which he claimed as 'God's Law', whether the Pope liked it or not.
Depending on whether you believe the Pope or the King, this brings it down to either four or three marriages.
Henry annulled his marriage to Anne Boleyn just before he had her executed for adultery. This was somewhat illogical: if the marriage had never existed, Anne could hardly be accused of betraying it.
He did the same with his fifth wife, Catherine Howard. All the evidence suggests she was unfaithful to him before and during their marriage. This time, Henry passed a special act making it treasonable gor a queen to commit adultery. Once again, he also had the marriage annuled.
So that makes four annulments, and only two incontestably legal marriages."


"You are not actually well known are you?"

"Many people in Brighton know where I live" is as true or false as the rest of that post.

"so when you get to Brighton just ask some people in any street where Jeff lives and you'll get an answer." That could be true, although the answer might be "Jeff who?" or "I don't know anyone called Jeff".

That Geiger counter was so expensive that I got it on tick. I wondered why it behaved like a lightsaber.
Jeff  Male  East Sussex
27-Mar-2019 23:02 Message #4737657
He's a swindler. The carp that he sold me wasn't really a fish made out of 24 karat gold.

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